www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A couple of questions from the Funeral Mass

1. Who was the Bishop/Patriarch from the East who was incensing His Holiness ?

2. Is it just me or does anyone feel that the East/West unity is much more closer ? For some reason, I feel in my heart that we will be as one in this lifetime.


I noticed His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew I and His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens at the funeral. At one point just before the Communion Rite, the camera panned over to them, They said something to each other and nodded. (Oh, to be a fly on their cassock)

Brad.

Hi Brad,

I saw that too!

I am curious too!

Alas, we were not flies and I don't think that we will ever know, although our curiousity has gotten the better of us!

In Christ,
Alice

Intrigued Latin asked:
> 2. Is it just me or does anyone feel that the
> East/West unity is much more closer ? For some
> reason, I feel in my heart that we will be as
> one in this lifetime.
It's not just you; this forum is full of Polyannas who think thus; however, if I were a betting man, I would bet all I have that this will NOT happen.

Please forgive my frankness, but methinks a healthy dose of reality is in order:

Conservative Orthodox Christians (of whom I may be the only on this forum ... which I joined to learn about local liturgical customs, being a liturgist) throughout the world have, to be polite, low regard for the Church of Rome.

28 miles from my home there is a monastery, chartered by the present Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew, where converts from Catholicism are made catechumens and subsequently baptized because "the baptism of heretics is without Grace." And this is under the jurisdiction of a liberal Patriarch ... I've seen Bartholomew vilified in Orthodox publications for his ecumenism, and on Athos he is regarded as a heretic for being friendly with the West (and Athos' opinions still hold much influence in the Orthodox world) ... and is common in many places under his jurisdiction and with his knowledge. And, I've seen this done in many parts of the Orthodox world; it is the norm in many jurisdictions.

If there were ever a a union proclaimed between any part of the Orthodox Church and Rome, it would be widely repudiated and either the persons responsible for the union would be unfrocked (as happened subsequent to the Council of Florence, the leader of the objectors to which was canonized shortly after his death) or, that failing, there would be a split off group (likely most of the local church) which would nearly certainly become recognized as canonical by the rest of the local Orthodox Churches.

Laity in Orthodox countries who have never met Catholics (and such people are common where tourists never go) have mixed feelings about the matter. However, I've observed that by telling them that, for example, Catholics do not fast before receiving Communion, their reaction is that certainly Catholic priests can not be real priests, because the Holy Spirit would not allow such wide spread sacrilege.

Again, forgive me for being blunt, but this is the reality I've encountered.

Photius, Reader

Dear Photius, Reader,

Although I am not a reader, I am Orthodox. I have no wish to dispute the facts as you present them. I hope that our hosts here will forgive you for being blunt, but let me explain what I find scandalous about your comments. I find it shocking that you can report on this sad state of affairs in our church without apologizing for it.

I have a question for you.

Do you think that this unwillingness to engage with our western brothers (and criticism of those who do) is laudable, or lamentable?

Sincerely,

David

Despite your blunt reality Photius,
On Friday night, on my way to get some starbucks coffee for my wife and I, (starbucks is a treat for us on Friday ) I happen to drive by a Macedonian Orthodox Church and a Greek Orthodox Church and noticed that both Churches had their flags at half mast. I immediately felt tears of joy in my eyes, as I witnessed the fraternal love of both these Orthodox Churches had towards our Holy Father.


Brad

Another question about the funeral. Did any of the Orthodox clergy receive communion? I assume since the Latin sacraments are not recognized, the answer would be no. I too was watching, but the cameras focused primarily on the communion being distributed to the faithful. I wasn't able to see who in the area reserved for dignitaries and other clergy actually received.

Photius,

I, as a Latin, have been very surprised by some of the things the Holy Spirit has allowed in the Western Church in recent years.

I have a question for you. What is the conservative Orthodox view on the changes made to the Roman Liturgy, that is, the adoption of the Pauline Mass? Are these changes seen as a hinderance to eventual unity, or as something positive? And would you consider the conservative Orthodox view on this subject to also be the prevailing view?

I've no desire to hijack this thread, but I ask this in light of Photious' response above referring to the current rules on fast prior to communion.

While it is true that the minimum amount of time for fasting before receiving Communion has been reduced to a bare minimum of one hour, there are still many devout Catholics who VOLUNTARILY choose to go beyond the bare minimum requirements, and fast from dinner the night before.

Which is better, to fast for several hours because you're required to, or do so because you want to?

(And FYI, the fast was actually first modified under Pope Pius XII, who shortened it to three hours - just in case anyone wants to blame this on "modernism". )

Dear Padraig,

The Orthodox have a dim view of the West adopting the "Filioque" in the Creed.

Their estimation of the West has been going down from there ever since . . .

But I think it would be a mistake to understand Orthodoxy as a monolith - that it certainly is not.

There are all kinds of even traditionalist Orthodox who would find the slightest change to liturgical disciplinary matters to be cause for excommunication etc.

Happily, many Orthodox Christians joined with us, in their hearts, if not liturgically, in mourning the Pope's passing.

They know that the Pope was a great Christian who held out his hand firmly to the Orthodox - even if Orthodox leaders refused to grasp it.

Alex

The Patriarch noticed that the first communicant approaching Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger for the mysteries was Brother Roger, of the Taize community. They had met, of course. The Metropolitan answered, that Brother Roger had been received from a protestant Church into the Catholic Church, and ordained priest, and so that is why he was concelebrating and approaching for the mysteries.

Just a guess....

That was his Holiness, Patriarch of Alexandria Andreas Gattas, of the Catholic Copts.

He was flanked by all the Catholic Patriarchs, Major Archbishops, and Metropolitans, heads of Churches who were present for the funeral.

I feel that this is a special time indeed. I pray that you are right! Perhaps it is the intercession of John Paul. If that was something he prayed for throughout his pontificate (he often said so), perhaps now he is in an even better position to accomplish this miracle?

The text of the published booklet, is available online from the Vatican website! Quick work, I'd say.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services...c_20050408_messa-esequiale-jp-ii_it.html

Dear Alex,

There are even all kinds of traditionalist Greek Catholics, who feel the same way about changes.

Just giving my two cents here on this particular issue... There will always be struggles with these ascetical practices, especially fasting. So I'm not sure it's a matter of "wanting" to - I don't necessarily want to fast, but I fast because I have to fast, that is, I need it. I think tinkering with the times of fasting is a tricky business. Better to leave the ideal alone and allow healthy people to struggle to reach it, than to give the absolute minimum and still have some people disregard even that.

I, for one, am very glad that as an Orthodox Christian, I am encouraged, even commanded, in no uncertain terms, to keep a complete fast (nothing by mouth, food or water) from midnight before I receive the eucharist.

Priest Thomas

Dear, in Christ, Reader Photius,

Not only traditionalist Orthodox find the current Roman Catholic neglect of fasting (Eucharistic and penitential fasting) shocking. I believe even the late Pope of Rome, and Cardinal Ratzinger both, have had something to say of this recently.

the unworthy,

Elias