www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A couple of questions from the Funeral Mass

I'm sorry that Theist Gal feels personally offended by any criticism that I might have of the changes in Roman Catholic fasting practices in relation to the eucharist. It is only my opinion that this particular change went too far. It think it is a valid argument - maybe poorly timed to those who are still mourning the death of Pope John Paul II. I certainly agree that Catholic bishops and the Pope have every right to make whatever changes they wish to make.

And I certainly defer to her request. May the Holy Spirit guide those who will chose the next Pope of the Catholic Church.

Priest Thomas

Dear Christine,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Anyone who has been around here long enough knows how much I appreciate the Western church, and how much I derive from it spiritually. I have often said how at times, depending on how I feel, I prefer the shorter Mass to our longer Liturgy, or a litany to a supplication service (and vice-versa ofcourse)! I have NEVER insinuated that the Eastern church is better in *anything*--- EVER!

Infact just the other day a former RC, now Orthodox member of my church complained about the lecture we both attended of Bishop Kallistos Ware, saying that he too 'esoteric' and not relative and dynamic. Instead of getting defensive, my response to him was that for that kind of thing, all he needs to do is listen to the many excellent priests of his former church that have been commenting lately on Terri Shaivo and the Pope. I told him, 'THAT is why we have to breathe with two lungs...each tradition has its strengths, the East in its mysticism and 'esoterism' (his words) and the West, in its more morally relevant commentaries.' He looked totally flabergasted, as I don't think he had ever heard another cradle Orthodox tell him to look back positively on his former faith as well as to his new faith.

Infact, this is probably the first time I have ever uttered a word of confusion about a RC practice...and it is nothing I haven't said to my most devout Catholic friends, who also shrug about it.

If you reread my post, you will see that I also think that our fasting requirement is a little extreme too. :rolleyes:

I have never been anything but charitable about the Roman Church, for I love it very much. I hope that this helps you realize my intentions.

In Christ, our unity,
Alice

Padraig asked:

> I have a question for you. What is the
> conservative Orthodox view on the changes made
> to the Roman Liturgy, that is, the adoption of
> the Pauline Mass? Are these changes seen as a
> hinderance to eventual unity, or as something
> positive? And would you consider the
> conservative Orthodox view on this subject to
> also be the prevailing view?

While this is something that I rarely discuss with people, my recollection is that no one thinks well of the Novus Ordo. In all respects, it moves the Roman Rite much farther from the Eastern Rites.

However, some things that came directly out of Vatican II (which the Novus Ordo did not) have met with positive reactions, at least among the educated. The notion of using the vernacular is a very Orthodox idea; as a matter of fact, it was one of the original causes of the Great Schism, when my patron Saint blessed his friend, St. Cyril, to translate the Holy Scriptures and Liturgical texts into Slavonic, but the pope (Nicholas I, �the Great�) objected.

Having personally read the decrees of Vatican II, I was impressed with such notions of liturgical renewal as serving the canonical hours at their logical times (and changing Matins so that it could be sensibly used any time of the day); in Byzantine times, services were served at their logical times, but since the fall of Constantinople, many absurdities have arisen, whereby it is common to sing �... now that we have come to the setting of the sun ...� at sunrise. Vatican II's directives against such nonsense inspired me.

At the same time, there are many people who are clueless what the Roman Rite is like or how Catholics (and Protestants) worship and live their lives. For example, I knew a very saintly abbot on Athos, Fr. Euthymios, who, while quite educated in ecclesiastical disciplines and accomplished in several fields, but whose formal education ended with the third grade, when his Mother died, and his father became a monk and took the future archimandrite with him. Once I was discussing with Fr. Euthymios how in the Russian Church, the royal doors are opened at the beginning of the polyeleios, while in Greece, they remain closed until the Gospel. He replied that the Greek custom was older and that the Russian got their custom from the Roman Catholics. When I explained that RCs have no iconstases or Royal Doors, he replied that such is impossible, and to the day of his death he surely thought that I had an odd sense of humor; after all, how can one have a Church without an iconostais? Fr. Euthymios also once asked me if the Protestants, since they rebelled against the evils of the Papacy, reverted to making the Sign of the Cross correctly, or do they do it backwards like the Latins. He was unable to believe me when I said that they do not make the Sign of the Cross.

On the other hand, a schema-archdeacon whom I knew well, who was educated in an American University and seminary, and who was as anti-Western as anyone I ever met, expressed an admiration for Archbishop LeFevre (sp?) because the latter �loved tradition�.

> I've no desire to hijack this thread, but I ask
> this in light of Photious' response above
> referring to the current rules on fast prior to
> communion.

Perhaps another thread should be started to deal with this, since it has generated much interest. I shall be quite busy later this week (the latter part of the fifth week in Lent being a time of several extremely lengthly services in the Byzantine tradition), but perhaps someone else (and a Catholic) could start it and I'll contribute if, and when, I have time and it's appropriate.

Photius

Dear Photius, Actually the Western Church does know the possibility of the rood screen, the riddel screen and riddel curtains, which add up to something related to the iconostasis, though it's not quite the same.

One can find Protestants who make use of the Sign of the Cross - it appears at least once in the (ugh!) Book of Common Prayer and among Lutherans the awareness that Luther recommended the use of the Sign of the Cross is still retained.

Still, the use of the Sign of the Cross among Protestants is certainly not the majority custom - and one must search hard to find a rood screen in a functioning Catholic Church. Pity; the few that still exist are rather nice.

Incognitus

Well, if anyone was offended that I was offended, I apologize. And it's entirely possible that I am overreacting - it's just that lately I've been seeing a lot of negative comments about the "Roman Church" popping up on other threads in this Forum and it's sort of bugging me. So that's where I'm coming from right now.

Still friends?

For those who do not "think well" of the current Roman Catholic Missa Normativa (the so-called "Novus Ordo" Mass), I would simply direct their attention to a beautiful and sublime example of one: the Holy Father's funeral Mass!

Also: I believe rood screens were abolished by the Council of Trent (no, not Vatican II) in an attempt to encourage greater participation in the liturgy by the laity.

Another thought: For all the criticism the Latin church receives about its "legalism," it certainly is taking a lot of abuse in this thread about altering its fasting regulations surrounding the reception of Holy Communion!

(I feel your pain, Theist Gal!)

Dear DTBrown,
While I'm in substantial agreement with you on this issue, methinks it irrelevant to refer back to the Agape meal because, as many Church Fathers noted, when the Church was in her formative stage, many things were done that subsequent custom has forbidden because the Holy Spirit was constantly visibly active in those days. Saint Augustine notes this in conjunction with speaking in tongues, which was needed to "kick start" the Church, but which the Holy Spirit has never manifested since then. The Church in those days had no New Testament (which, of course, was being written), no Apostolic Tradition. The priesthood's orders were not all established, and the Sacraments were in an infant form; the Church today could not change how things emerged by the end of the Apostolic era. Note that just as the Liturgy was celebrated in conjunction with a meal, Christians worshipped in Synagogues (which is expressly forbidden by pre-Nicean canons) and Confirmation was conferred by the laying on of hands, although the Apostles later made Chrism to replaced laying on of hands for that Sacrament.

Photius

--- Commence Original Post ---

Fasting definitely has its place in the spiritual life and I believe the current minimal approach to it should be abandoned in favor of a more traditional approach. Nevertheless, how fasting has been observed in the history of the Church has varied considerably.

For example, the note in the Orthodox Study Bible for 1 Corinthians 11:33,34 (page 394) observes:

"The Agape meal, connected to the Eucharist, was conducted with the same dignity as the Eucharist. While the Corinthian church ate before communion, and present-day Orthodox Christians fast, the spirit of their eating was the same as our fasting: preparation."

Misere mei, Domine mentions that he thinks the Council of Trent abolished rood screens. Might I request a reference, with chapter and verse? Sorry to seem incredulous, but I've been told more times than I can count that Vatican II requires the celebration of Mass "facing the people" when in fact no such requirement occurs anywhere in the documents of Vatican II.

Incognitus

Photius,

Thanks very much for the reply and the information. I may start a post on this subject, however I wouldn't want it to degenerate into an "old mass vs. new mass" thread. Your response was very much to the point, and I especially appreciate your information on views in regard to the vernacular and the changes to canonical hours.

From the Latin standpoint I find our biggest weakness is ignorance of the East. Despite the Pope's teaching on this matter, very few RCs seem to know much, if anything, about the traditions of the Eastern Church. Reunification doesn't seem to be much of a concern. Again, this is just my experience at the parish level, and among family and friends. I have seen numerous ecumenical initiatives and services with various Protestant denomintations, but I have rarely seen any involving Orthodox communities.

I attended the DL at the local Ruthenian parish last Sunday. Father gave a nice homily touching on the life of Pope John Paul II. He closed by talking about the Eastern Bishops' involvement at the end of the Funeral Mass. He spoke of how the Holy Father preached about the Universal Church, and how we should learn from each other and breathe with both lungs. This was a great sermon, but where it really needs to be heard is in RC parishes. It led me to wonder how many Latin priests took that wonderful last example of our late Holy Father's vision of the Universal Church and used it to preach on the subject. I fear not many.

I count myself lucky to have found this board with so many people who share an appreciation of the East, and who share a common interest in a lasting unity in Christ.

Very true, but alas, it is an exception rather than the rule in North America. I look forward to the day when this is the norm for the Pauline Mass.

Doug

I spoke in error: the Council of Trent evidently did not abolish rood screens, per se:

From: Marcia B. Hall, The ponte in S. Maria Novella: the problem of the rood screen in Italy, Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, 37 (1974) 157-73.

Found at: http://www.smn.it/arte/hall.htm

One of the chief abuses the Council of Trent undertook to correct was the remoteness of the layman from the liturgy. Again and again, the Decrees of the Council emphasized the importance of lay participation in the Mass. To facilitate the layman�s involvement, S. Carlo Borromeo, that zealous Counter-Reformer, advocated in his book on church architecture (Instructionum fabricae et supellectilis ecclesiasticae, 1577) that a church should be designed so that anyone attending Mass would have a clear view of the high altar. As Vincenzo Borghini attested (1585), this was directly contrary to existing conditions. He remarked that one had seen little of the altar even in private chapels where the gates or wrought iron screens were kept closed to separate the clergy and his ministers. Neither Trent nor Borromeo laid down an explicit rule that rood screens should in all cases be demolished. The Council�s Decrees, the fruits of many compromises, rarely stated any absolute prescription, but rather proposed the criteria for judgement. Thus it was that certain tramezzi, late in date of construction and already representing something of a compromise with the Renaissance preference for open and clearly demarcated space, were permitted to stand. Since the Anglican Church took no such position on the desirability of a clear view of the chancel the English rood screens were to a great extent preserved until modern times. In Germany and France, where the heat of reforming fervour was often dissipated in traversing the Alps, some examples escaped demolition. Italy, however, always more susceptible to Rome, went about the business of renovating old churches with far greater energy than its transalpine neighbours. In the rush to conform to the new norms virtually all the Italian rood screens and choirs were swept away. The transformation was effected with such efficiency, in fact, that by the time the urge to regothicize these churches arose, in the nineteenth century, the memory of what they had actually looked like had been obliterated....

I wish Pope Pius had let my dad know this...in '68 when I made my first Communion my dad watched me like a hound dog to make sure that I had nothing to eat from dinner the night before; the Mass didn't start till 1pm the next day...because I had done the Yom Kippur fast the month before with my mom and my best friend, the fasting wasn't hard, but boy did the donuts my younger siblings were eating look good...

Vie

Miserere mei, Domine, writes "Since the Anglican Church took no such position on the desirability of a clear view of the chancel the English rood screens were to a great extent preserved until modern times." Alas, this is not the case.

"The stripping of the Altars" by Eamon Duffy gives an exhaustive - and accurate - description of what happened.

Incognitus