www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West I believe vs. We believe

Bless me a sinner, Father Kimel,

(You can use the Christogram for this one, if you wish!)

It is always nice to read another's post, especially when it completely agrees with what I wrote . . .

You are not an Anglican, but an Angel!

Alex

Yes and that might be a travesty to change a word, this seems to be changing its form. Since the creed's liturgical usage apparently moved from the Council's statement to usage in baptism to liturgy it seems to me a normal progression. At baptism one could not say "We believe" it must be in the singular. That it remained so when it moved into the liturgy is a bit curious but I dont see that as a change really. IMO it is something like he/she/they, the blank needs to be filled in. Latin has credo, Greek pisteuo, Slavonic v'iruju - all in the 1st person singular.

When the American RCs put it into English as "We believe..." that was a change from the usage of the AFAIK Universal Church.

Tony

Dear Tony,

Along with the Filioque and some other issues - or so I hear . . .

Alex

Alex,

I am a little by your comment, surely you know better.

The "filioque" was part of the creed in the West for quite some time. What I am talking about is the (American) English-language usage of the Creed. Other languages have kept the 1st person singular from the Latin/Greek "credo/pisteuo" hence "I believe." The English translation/version of the Creed now employing "We believe" does not reflect the Latin or Greek. The Ruthenian BCs here in the USA have the 1st person singular as well as the GCs in Slovakia.

The filioque is another issue.

Tony

Dear Tony,

Really . . .

I'm going to really have to give some thought about getting some formal seminary training under my belt.

But I'm having too much fun enjoying my sense of humour to risk losing it as some seem to have . . .

Forgive me a sinner.

Alex

Actually, I think that it is clear from your post, Father Kimel, and from Fr. Hopko, that "we" is original, and "I" is traditional.

But neither form can claim to be more original AND traditional than the other.

http://www.church-twinning.org/worship.html

Gives the text in French, German, Spanish
as: "We believe..." (The Apotles Creed in the French has "I believe").

In Italian, the text has "Credo", rather than "Credere". For the Latin scholars: is "Credo" unambiguously first-person singular?

If memory serves me, the "we" in the Creed was adopted some years ago in the Latin Church because of some consultations with other western churches in an ecumenical gesture. Our current rendering of the Gloria is also from this consultation.

However, the analysis of the translation of the second edition of the Roman Missal was devastating in picking apart many usages such as these. I understand that many of the core, standard prayers we have been hearing and using for the last twenty-five years are among the texts Rome wants re-translated according to the principles of Liturgicam Authenticam. The Confiteor, the Gloria, the Creed, the Roman Canon are all texts that have been mentioned for retranslation according to my sources. So I look for a closer rendering of the Latin in the third edition's translation which should start sometime soon.

Personally, I believe that we should be consulting across particular sui juris churches so that we are all using the same wording in the same language, whether we use the Roman, Byzantine, Armenian, or whatever Liturgy as we worship. That is a sign of unity that we need.

As far as the Apostles Creed, Alex, I haven't experienced its being used. At the daily Liturgies I've attended during the past 35 years the Creed is normally dropped altogether, except as you mention for Sundays or feasts falling during the week.

BOB

Don't know about other OO Churches, but in the Coptic Church I've only ever heard "We believe" in any Liturgical context (Liturgy, Matins/Vespers, Hours, Baptism, Matrimony)

djs,

Credere would be the infinitive, it is in the indicative, "I (or we) believe," not "to believe."

I believe, though I may be mistaken, that ICEL was mainly an RC project. The Episcopal Church adopted them, as an ecumenical gesture, for its 1979 BCP. They are disastrous! Just compare the Sanctus.

Old BCP:

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts.
Heaven and earth are full of thy glory.
Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High.
Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the Highest.

1979:

Holy, holy, holy, God of power and might.
Heaven and are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the Highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Egads, where did that silly "God of power and might" come from!

But for ecumenism's sake, we followed Rome with these terrible texts. Sigh.

Reader Tony,

The Latin and Byzantine Churches are alone in the use of "I believe". All other traditions use "We believe". So rather than a universal tradition it would seem this is a Roman one(East & West) in the truest sense of the word.

In Christ,
Reader Lance

Reader Lance,

"Reader Tony " looks funny but I'm not sure why

My point is that the Creed as it is used in the Liturgy in the Roman and Byzantine Churches (and I would have guessed others) is in the first person singular. It seems to have moved into the Liturgy from the baptismal services IIRC. Of course, the Conciliar statement which the Creed originally was was in the first person plural, it only makes sense.

I guess I am at a loss as to why the RCs leave the Latin "Credo" and yet in English (and apparently some other languages in some places) put it into the plural. Whent he Mass was "reformed" back at/after Vatican II a new Latin text was issued which is the basis for the other texts, yet this singular to plural is beyond that. What can account for it?

Maybe I should say Reader Anthony aka Tony?

Reader Tony, (or Anthony, let me know which you prefer)

Bad translation principles, something which the Vatican is demanding be corrected. However, I also disagree with the other extreme, i.e the contention of traditionalists that something is doctrinally wrong with "We believe". It is Byzantine and Latin tradition to use "I" it should be used, but without disparaging other traditions use of "We".

In Christ,
Reader Lance

Tony,
Thanks for the comment.
Lacking background in Latin or Italian, I went to http://translation.langenberg.com/ for help. I input "I believe, you believe, he believes, we believe, they believe" for translation into Italian and got:
"credo, voi credo, lui credo, noi credo, credo"
from google, worldlingo, babel fish, and dictionary.com; "Credo, lei crede, crede, crediamo, credono" from freetranlation; and
"io credere , tu credere , egli/lui credere , noi credere , essi credere" from tranexp. (Hence my earlier post; only the latter translates to Latin).

With a little further study, http://italianculture.about.com/library/fare/blverbs01.htm, I now get it that of all of these tranlators, only freetranslation does the subject verb together, the other do them without reference ot each other and tranlate the isolated verbal word either as the first person singular or infinite. That's pathetic software, but I should have anticipated as much.