www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West I believe vs. We believe

Here's a couple of hits on "Credimus in unum Deum"

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicenel.htm
Compares Latin texts of 381 vs Trent. (Also Greek on another page and some English work.)

http://www.storia.unive.it/_RM/didattica/anto_ame/cap_I/I_3_or.htm
A slightly different rendering of the 381 text

http://romanliturgy.net/mozarabic.html
Mozarabic Liturgy

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2003/Mar03/1000Yearswps.htm
A music anthology showing "Credimus..." in Xth century chants.

Was it still "Credimus" at the schism?
I read some suggestions that the "Credo" was not official until Trent. Hmmm

Well, Greek has pisteuo and Slavonic v'iruju, what does the current Latin text of the Roman Mass have?

As far as I knew it was "Credo in Unum Deum, Patrem Omnipotentem..." now it is "Credimus in Unum..."?

Not now, then.

And the Greek of Nicea, Constantinople and Chalcedon, from http://www.creeds.net/ancient/niceneg.htm

"Πιστεύομεν ..."

When was this changed, and by whom?

Dear Reader Lance,

I prefer "Tony" without any title. It is, in my estimation, not necessary here for me, if you wish to use it for yourself that is fine and inasmuch as it is my rank now I accept its use for me but don't encourage it.

Again, it is clear that the conciliar text was in the 1st person plural. How could using the text issued but an Ecumenical Council could be "wrong"? AFAIK, Byzantine and Roman liturgical usage is in the 1st person singular, and as far as I knew in Latin it was "Credo" now in a post above it appears "Credimus."

What other liturgical traditions do authentically is another issue I think.

Tony

Again, the concialiar documents were signed by a bunch of bishops, so it is clear that it would be in the plural, hence pisteuomen. In the Greek Liturgy it is in the singular, pisteuo.

When it was changed? Likely when it moved from baptism into the liturgy.

Dear Reader Lance,

Did not our Coptic colleague also say that his tradition used only "I?"

And that is outside the "Roman" tradition, to be sure!

How are you doing these days, Big Guy?

Alex

Dear Theophan,

LOL! Not even the Apostles' Creed! Now that really IS liturgical laziness

When I was in university, I once brought our Ukie priest to the chapel for a Byzantine Liturgy.

The Chaplain was well acquainted with the Filioque controversy and himself told me that RC's shouldn't use it etc.

But you could have heard a pin drop during the recitation of the Nicene Creed during the Liturgy when the "Filioque" was ommitted.

Even the Chaplain's eyes were rolling.

Old habits die hard, I suppose

Alex

Alex,

I think you misread big guy.

"Don't know about other OO Churches, but in the Coptic Church I've only ever heard "We believe" in any Liturgical context (Liturgy, Matins/Vespers, Hours, Baptism, Matrimony)"

And I am doing exceptionally well. Please remember me in your prayers as I will be ordained to the subdiaconate this Sat.

In Christ,
Reader Lance

Dear Reader Lance,

Sorry if I (or we, there could be more) misread your point in this real BARNBURNER of a topic for a thread

Apart from providing eagle-mats for bishops to stand on during Pontifical Liturgies at a moment's notice, could you enlighten me (or us) as to the overall liturgical role of a Subdeacon?

When will you become a Deacon? Or better still, a Priest?

From the way you write, I can tell you are an extremely sensitive man with the capacity for deep feeling and commitment.

May God bless you always!

Alex

Alex,


Liturgically the subdeacon does nothing more than an ordinary altar server with the exception of washing the bishops hands at pontifical liturgy.

As yet, we have not received dates for diaconal ordinations but I assume they will be forthcoming.

As to the presbyterate, I do not feel called to this order. Perhaps someday that will change, but for now I am humbled by the possibility of becoming a deacon. I pray that I will be worthy of the calling.

In Christ,
Reader Lance

Dear Reader Lance,

I think "worthiness" is something we may pray for - but the day we think we actually "are worthy" is when we really aren't . . .

God bless you and you would make an excellent priest!

(Hopefully, your people won't have to pull an "Augustine" on you - tie you up and bring you to the bishop for ordination by force! )

Alex

Lance is being very modest (as usual ).

In the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy the Subdeacon is the "Bishop's Man" and accompanies him, hands him the trikerion, dikerion, is to move the orlets for him, wash his hands, etc. In the Archieratikon (service book when the Bishop presides) there are many liturgical functions specifically given to the subdeacon.

Sort of the liturgical bodyguard and porter for the Bishop. In the old days when the bishop had different sorts of enemies it was the job of the subdeacon to test the prosphora bread and wine and see if it was poisoned.

From www.freetranslation.com [freetranslation.com] :

Logos Teen

Lance:

My spiritual director has had me meditating on the idea of "unworthiness" and its importance in a true relationship with Christ. If we were worthy, we would not need Him. Like puzzle pieces that have a notch to receive another, our unworthiness is precisely the point at which the Lord meets us.

May the Lord fill up in us that which is lacking, may He heal in us that which is infirm, and may He strengthen in us that which He finds of His own gifts for His Glory, for the benefit and building up of His Holy Church, and for the benefit of the greater communities of which we are also called to be lights, reflecting His Glory.

BOB

Humility of the Day Award goes to Lance!

I was worried no one would earn it; only an hour left in the day here in good ole West Georgia.

And perhaps I should change the title to "Humble Comment of the Day Award."

Logos Teen