www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is anti-papal Catholic rhetoric the norm in Orthodoxy?

At a very basic level of bringing the Gospel to people's lives, I have to agree with the spirit of your ideas here. There are abuses even at this very foundational level but I suppose I don't much care either who is handing out the New Testaments.

That being said I think the onus is on both Orthodox Catholics and the papal Church to consciously and carefully work to promulgate the Truth that is handed down through Scripture and Tradition, and I think, in formal terms, our respective Churches do just that.

Thanks for you insights.

Eli

Yes I agree with this sentiment. There seems to be of Orthodox bashing going on of late. Not on on I tell you...not on!

I am mystified by those who are content that the split between East and West exists.

I recall the explicit prayer of Christ in His High Priestly Prayer, "...that they may be One, Father, even as Thee and I are One..."

I have a terrible dread of standing before Him on the Strashnyj Sud' and having to acknowledge to Him that I did not do everything I could to bring it about that it would be so....

I do NOT want to have to answer the question "Did you try to build that Oneness?" with a "No, Lord", however sheepishly admitted it may be or however heartbroken the repentance of the instant may be.

oh my yes indeed. If some of it weren't so painful it would be funny. Actually some of it is humorous.

Remember I am not judging or condemning here so I am not comparing to say better or worse, you see. There's no doubt in my mind that there are sins and temptations all around.

That latest was so stunning that in some attempt at charity, I am holding fire, till I hear from the fellow who posted that note. I am holding my breath hoping for a reasonable explanation. Blue does not become me.

Well I certainly appreciate your responses here. I think that Zenovia and I, in the later exchange, hit upon a couple of things that are of the greatest concern as I see them.

I think that attitudes are going to be more and more important as we start the process of future bi-lateral agreements and accords.

I like to keep in mind the quite public Internet perspectives expressed over the passed decade between members of ROCOR vis a vis the Moscow Patriarch. There renewed communion was also said to be 'out of the question.'

So all things are possible in God, yes?

Thanks again, Andrew.

Eli

I agree. I think this fits in nicely with my concern with matters of attitude and habit of mind between the two major Catholic confessions.

Eli

Dear Elitoft,

To be honest, I'm not very fond of Seraphim Rose...but that's neither here nor there. What worries me though, is that I believe some Orthodox Churches in this country are falling into somewhat of a state of apostasy in order to accomodate secular Orthodox, and/or Protestant converts. On a whole ROCOR is more correct in it's teaching and beliefs.

ROCOR though,(as also the monasteries), are definitely against union with the RCC. In Greece though, the people definitely want union...and it is therefore starting to be considered a movement of the Holy Spirit. Funny how it was the bishop's in Greece that were so adamantly against the Church of Rome in the past....but that was before the visit by Pope John Paul II.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

I have a strong sense that Father Seraphim will some day be added to, at the very least, a local cult of saints in these American lands. Whatever my opinions of that whole period in California and the community that Father Seraphim left behind, I think that his sanctification may well be warranted and I've looked at that and prayed about it strongly for some time now, for my initial thoughts were far more negative than your own as you express them here. [and had nothing to do with paying toll ] But I do not think St. John was in error with his spiritual son, Seraphim.

And yes. The whole turn-around in attitude of so many in the Greek Church brings hope to my heart and a tear to my eye.

You know I share your concerns about the dilution of Orthodox teaching. And I have it from some fair authority that Jordanville is shoring up the sides of her seminary curriculum to strengthen the promulgation of Truth even more, and close some of the gaps that had opened in the latter half of the 20th century.

It's odd but I have actually been closest to people from ROCOR over the years, so you know that I can live with a little attitude . I find the inner spirit and moral discipline of the people of ROCOR, in the majority, to be so very good.

Just don't mention that Roman Catholic Religious Organization (RCRO) and all will be well!! :p

Many thanks. Much appreciation.

Eli

Starokatolyk,

Amen!

I for one believe that our level of apathy should never be the measure of our calling. The fact that unity may not be discussed in either RC parishes or Orthodox parishes IS disturbing. (In my experience within EC churches, it is very much on the hearts and minds of the faithful...sometimes for good or ill, but nevertheless, it comes up in conversation.) I am equally disturbed by this sense that somehow the status quo reflects God's perfect will for us. Did not Jesus say that the defining charcteristic of His disciples would be their love for one another? He said nothing of "tolerance"...who wants a "unity" where we just tolerate each other? Who wants a marriage like that?

No - I am willing to seek after the conversion that Pope Benedict referred to so that unity can be accomplished. I for one will not avoid the cross of catholicity.

Gordo

Well, I am not in any hurry for reunion between the Orthodox and the Catholics. We're just not ready for it right now. I'm not "content" with that situation, but I am resigned to living with it till the two Churches grow in fraternal love for each other in the fraternal love for Christ.

Right now, the people of both Churches don't have that fraternal love for each other. Most Catholics know almost nothing about the Orthodox. Many Orthodox don't have a full understanding of the Catholics. And few of either Church have anything to do with each other.

Yet, the Church is the Body of Christ. We are all brothers in Christ. So, how can we be brothers if we don't have anything to do with each other ? In name only ? We can't have reunion of the Churches till the people of the Churches cultivate reunion in their hearts by cultivating the fraternal love of Christ.

In my opinion, I think a lot more practical work toward reunion would come from several generations of ordinary Catholics and ordinary Orthodox working together on charities, praying together, and talking and listening and learning about each other. Heck, we could start by eating meals with each other at each others' ethnic festivals. Etc.

In my opinion, the bishops can't take the next theological and ecclesiastical steps towards reunion till the people of each Church stop being strangers to each other. There can't be any meaningful reunion, in more than just in name, till that happens.

If we want reunion between the Churches, we have to cultivate fraternal love between the people of the Churches, by cultivating the fraternal love of Christ: by praying with each other, and by fellowshipping with each other, even by eating with each other, and just by sharing our lives with each other, in Christ.

-- John

Sadly, this is not the way human nature works. We need to be thrown together and forced to depend on one another for survival before we come close to that "fraternal love" that you speak of here.

Unless the hierarchs impose the idea and the original impetus from the top, those of us at the bottom of the heap will not come together and cross those invisible lines.

We also NEED the graces of communion to be able to forge the kind of love needed to STAY together.

I fear you have the whole thing backwards, John.

Like waiting till the "right time" to get pregnant. For most ordinary folks of modest means that best time only comes the day it is apparent that it is already a reality.

Eli

In a general sense yes, but I�ll simply echo my sentiments made in the other thread and say I don�t know what it is people are expecting to happen.

Andrew

*sorry Andrew, I clicked on 'edit' instead of 'quote' to respond to you by mistake.

Alice

Is this how you conduct your spiritual life? Do you wait to pray until conditions are right? Do you wait to get rid of that habitual sin till all the conditions are right so that your chances of success are optimized? Do you wait to fulfill your obligations to the commands of the covenant till all of the conditions are aligned to make it possible for you to do so with grace? Do you bury your talent because you are convinced that no matter what there is no point in taking a risk?

If that is not how you tend to your own sprititual life why would you recommend that for the healing of the sin of schism?

Eli

Dear Eli you said:

I say:

I can only speak for my Church, but what you are saying is somewhat correct. I know that for many decades the GOA went in the direction of unity with the Anglicans. Today of course, with the direction the Anglicans have taken, we know that unity with them is impossible. The hopes of the past though, tend to remain somewhat in that certain priests still hope that they can become bishops while living in a married state.

Since our Church believes that the Holy Spirit moves the people, what is said by our priests and hierarchy, and worse, what is not being said by them, might fall into the category of manipulation. In other words, as long as the people are kept from knowing anything that might encourage them towards unity with the RCC, the desire towards it cannot exist among the people. Therefore it cannot be considered a movement of the Holy Spirit.

Hopefully our Patriarch, that can see problems in a world wide perspective and being faced with the current danger of secularism and Islam, will consider the well being of the universal Church by pushing towards unity between East and West.

That there are differences in our theology is well known, and must be worked out. An understanding must be reached on what is of importance and what is not.

Zenovia

I concur.

Michael

Eli,

I'm not trying to say 'wait for the right time.' I'm trying to say: now is the right time. Orthodox and Catholic bishops are talking with each other; they are seeking reunion. So, I'm saying that it's time for the laity to follow that lead and talk with each other --and pray with each other and fellowship with each and so on. Unless we do that, the bishops won't be able to lead us to the next step -- because we won't be able to follow them and because they won't have a foundation of Christian charity to build upon. So, I think now is the time for laity of each Church to do its part by developing ties of fraternal love with each other. That will become, in turn (God willing), the foundation upon which further unity-building can be made.

By the way, it doesn't have to be grandiose. It also can't be perfect nor expected to be perfect. It can be and should be natural. This Forum is a good example. So too was the ecumenical prayer service that my (Byzantine Catholic) parish hosted in February and which was attended by (among others) the local Orthodox priest. So too will be the local Orthodox parish's food festival, which will be held two weeks from now and which will be attended by members of my Byzantine Catholic parish. It's simple stuff like this that can (and must) be done to build the next layer of reunification between the Churches.

-- John