www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is anti-papal Catholic rhetoric the norm in Orthodoxy?

O K!!

As long as "now" is the best time for communion then I'd say, along with you, that the best first step is to work to change hearts and minds by prayer and interaction, so we do agree.

The proscription against prayerful interaction with heretics, however, must be lifted by Orthodox hierarchs.

The propensity for calling each other as heretics must be proscribed by our respective bishops, or it will get in the way.

It is going to happen anyway but it should not be highlighted as good or necessary.

Eli

My half-Catholic half-Orthodox family rarely discussed the Pope. They rarely discussed the Patriarch, either. Only in passing. Obviously, we prayed for the leaders in the Mass and the Liturgy and in private prayers. But there was nothing to squabble about in every day life.

Some of the commentators who get on the internet can be a little extreme. Sometimes I wonder if some large percentage of these folks are converts and still feeling bitten by the zealous bug.

It is like the second poster said (I'm sorry forgot the name - started with an H.) In my experience, recipe discussion is far more important among my own clan of Slavs, who can magically gain weight during the fasting and abstaining times of the year. We were all laughing at a family-and-friends gathering earlier this year when my mom and her cousin were discussing the merits and demerits of halupki sampled at church events the previous year. I am sure that if someone interjected and asked about the Pope or the Patriarch, they'd have asked, "What, does he have a better recipe?" I'm not saying religious discussion is absent - that is not the case, as we grew up with a lot of spiritual instruction and religious tradition - but for us ordinary people gathered together, we tend to talk about ordinary things. We only rarely get on to the big discussions of religious history or theology. We tend to read about those things quietly and discuss among a small group outside the dinner hour, but we talk about who makes the best version of a vegan pirohi the rest of the time or about more cultural aspects.

Religion is not an us versus them - or our Pope versus can beat up your Patriarch - type of discussion. Never should be. That's most uncharitable and unChristianlike. Somewhere in heaven the holy apostles and martyrs are probably rolling their eyes [I guess they can't roll them heavenward, so I dunno where they roll them] whenever that bickering gets started.

Well, for one thing: a special prayer or even mention during the designated week of unity in January would be nice.

The only time I remember this was about five years ago when my parish had a Roumanian priest substitute for my own priest. Not only did he mention it, pray for it and discuss it, but he also pointed us to a Catholic/Orthodox prayer service that was being held in a RC church--all the way in Brooklyn, NY. When he mentioned that unity is something we should all pray for and strive for, you could see more than one head nodding in agreement in the congregation.

My husband and I actually went, since we had no other obligations that evening. It was beautiful, though one could still sense a bit of distrust in the RC cantor. The GO choir of the neighboring church sang, and there were quite a few Orthodox monks of different traditions sitting in the congregation both following the service and praying.

Afterwards, there was a coffee in the church hall. I will admit that you could sense some discomfort, but it was an effort. I have not seen or heard of any other efforts since then other than the interfaith Thanksgiving service which is held every year in my town.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that we expect our spiritual leaders to lead us.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Friends,

I believe we all want the union of the Churches, indeed, EC's (and Orthodox) pray for it in the Divine Liturgy regularly!

Ultimately, this will be resolved by a future union Council representing both East and West, to be sure.

And laity can and should take specific initiatives in this regard.

Another component to all this is our understanding of our own "ecclesial and theological world-views" with respect to the other.

Orthodox Christians, as we know, see the break with Rome as being truly sinful . . . on Rome's part.

They do not deny the Petrine Primacy at all - they only believe that it is exercised by the EP of Constantinople following Rome's "self-imposed" separation from the Church as a result of heresy etc.

And even if Rome and Orthodoxy were to agree to everything today - without the mystical act of reunion, the separation would hold.

This is why the Orthodox bishops and theologians were in great consternation over the remark by Pope Paul VI that "unity is almost complete" way back when. They had no idea what he was talking about and what had happened to change things!

The Orthodox also regard Catholics with suspicion on the matter of ecumenism, seeing the Catholic ecumenical outreach as a form of "uniatism outreach with a warm smile."

As the EP has said, Orthodoxy has informed Rome about what it would "take" to achieve unity. And the EP has also said that Rome hasn't moved one iota on anything as yet.

Even the recent dropping of the title "Patriarch of the West" that Rome said would help the ecumenical movement with Orthodoxy quite literally blew up in everyone's face - the EP issued a statement of hope that Rome won't take any more unilateral actions, like that one, to hurt RC-Orthodox ecumenism.

Perhaps this is about thinking we understand the Orthodox when we really should be letting them speak for and represent what they believe and feel.

When have Catholics really done that? I used to think we have, but not any longer.

Alex

See Father Hopko presentation on recent East/West thread-- topic "What would Orthodox would have to do to be in communion with Rome" which elicited minimum reaction.

Dear Vito,

It seems to me that Fr. Hopko appears to be placing more conditions on an eventual reunion than necessary, especially with respect to his liturgical section.

For one thing, I don't see what the issue of unleavened Communion bread has to do with reunion (Fr. John Meyendorff once commented that after the Consecration there is no more bread on the altar anyway, but the Body and Blood of OLGS Jesus Christ!).

And I've never heard the Orthodox take issue with the Novus Ordo as a possible barrier to reunion either.

Alex

Dear Alex, Yes I agree, I guess he was trying to cover all possibilities. But what I was getting at was his second presentation to us on "What Orthodox would have to do to be in communion with Rome." I posted the link for his talk (slightly edited.)

Vito

Here's the link again: http://www.doy.org/viewpast.asp?ID=2027

Dear Vito,

Oh!

That's a different story!

I'll think about it!

Alex

I'm not really sure what you're going on about here. To quote myself in the previous thread, this is what I said

That's my overall view. I admit I'm more interest in inter-East issues than I am in East/West relations. We have our own problems that need to be sorted out before we're really ready to seriously talk to anybody else IMO. That's not a matter of being anti West. I don't have an issue with Western Christianity or theology by in large. I think the real issues as I said are about governance and the problem of post schism councils. I admit though, I don't spend much time talking or thinking about it.

Andrew

Dear Andrew you said:

I say:

As far back as I recall, (and I'm talking about 50 years), the Orthodox, or at least the GOA was talking about having a Eucemenical council to solve all the problems among the Orthodox. The council was always going to happen in two years. Funny but whenever someone asks about a problem in my Church, the bishops, archbishops or what not, always come back with; that it's going to be solved in two weeks, two months or two years. So, so much for that!

It appears to me that something is hindering it. So I can't help but feel that maybe unity with the RCC should come first.

Now the way I see it, everyone wants to be led by an authority figure. If our Orthodox leaders therefore show even the slightest interest towards unity with the RCC, the people will start coming in line. Maybe a little at first, but the more the leader or leaders show an interest, the more the people will, and the more the people do, the more the leaders will...and so it will grow.

...And that will be the work of the Holy Spirit!

Zenovia