www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are we to ape the Orthodox anymore than we ape the Latins?

Dear Friends,

Certainly, we should be who we are.

In the UGCC at least, there are different levels of such "being" however.

To "ape the Orthodox" would truly be a valid issue in the UGCC.

It would suggest those who would be in favour of the Russian recension or "Russified ways" and who are out to Russify our Church.

This is not a recent phenomenon, but a recurring one in the UGCC history.

Russification of the Church went hand-in-hand with the Russification of the cultural identity of the people.

I know this is a difficult and often unwelcome issue among North Americans, but it is there and is very real among many EC's here.

Also, the Orthodox (non-Latinized) regional Rites in Eastern Europe deserve to have the freedom to be what they are too. (Example, the Orthodox of Volyn, the Orthodox of Galicia, of Bukovyna etc.).

There is today, of course, a Latinized Greek-Catholic Church in Eastern Europe.

The Latinizations have their own reason for existence - they cannot be simply explained by undue Western/Polish influence.

And the people, including some Orthodox, cling to the Latinizations as an integral part of their Greek-Catholic identity (which they definitely do see as separate from the Orthodox - I've been told more times than I can count by priests from Eastern Europe that their Greek-Catholic parishioners "squint as if in terrible pain" when they hear the words "and all you Orthodox Christians" during the Liturgy).

In a sense, we North Americans are used to separating church and state, religion from national identity.

That doesn't exist anywhere else really.

And I think the idea of "aping the Orthodox" is a valid point to make, within that context and also the context of seeing the Greek-Catholic churches living their own lives with traditions, Latin or not, that have existed among them for quite a few years, if not centuries.

Even St Alexis Toth knew that - and he was VERY delicate with new Orthodox converts and their Latin devotions to ensure they were not turned off by an enforced "aping of the Orthodox" .

Alex

John,

Welcome. Ape as a verb meaning to imitate is fairly commonly used in the circles I frequent...although that may be a sign that I need some new circles.


The only imitation of me should be as I follow Christ. Sometimes I get a little off track but not often. All branches of the Church should seek to conform themselves to Christ which will lead to a healthy return to communion, I should think.

Dan L

Alex,

Again, excellent thoughts. I still remember how surprised I was when I noticed a full house of pews bolted to the floor with kneelers at a Detroit area Orthodox Church. Is that the Orthodoxy that we are to follow? I don't see why.

Dan L

Dear Professor Dan,

I'll never forget when we had Panakhyda services at the cemetery at Pentecost.

Our UGC priest knelt EVERY time the "Heavenly King" prayer was said.

The Orthodox priests around us didn't . . .

My parish has pews and we need them so we won't fall down on the floor as it is slanted forward . . .

Our parish priest did such a good job preaching against the pews at Saturday school, that a group of us got some hammers together and went off to the Church to get rid of them once and for all!

The priest heard of this and rushed out quickly to intercept us would-be pew-bashers.

"Just go home early today, O.K.?" the distressed priest muttered as he took away our hammers, one by one.

Alex

I have a small army of "attack" ring tailed lemurs that I've trained to scurry in to churches and remove pews and organs while unsuspecting parishioners are in the trapeza.

Please, nobody say anything.

As a Byzantine who is organist in a Latin Rite church, I am very much in favor of organs in churches where they are a tradition. They just don't belong in Eastern Churches.

byzanTN, you are safe. I explicitely trained the lemurs to listen for the sound of a single chord followed by a group of humans struggling to then acquire the pitch to match it. They will only attack organs in these circumstances.

I go to one of the afore mentioned Western Rite Orthodox Churches. We mostly ape the Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians who are themselves aping pre-vat2 Catholics. Some of us just ape the Catholics without intermediary step (These folks use a Tridentine mass translated into English). Please keep your lemurs out of our Nave, and far away from our choir loft. We just got a new organ (or new to us) and...

Actually, come to think of it, I kinda liked the a capella groove we had when our organist was out last year...

Our address is
2601 Bellair Dr. South,
Fort Worth, TX 76132.

Sounds like a nice place, David.

They become docile and actually quite friendly at the sight of a rood screen. I've thought of everything! Have no fear!

Alex,

I wish I had your good sense of humor. Wonderful vignettes.

Dan Lauffer

Is that the Orthodoxy that we are to follow? I don't see why.

Dan L

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No, this isn't the Orthodoxy WE are to follow either. Don't get me started on the pews... Grrrr....

Dear Professor Dan,

Thank you for the compliment, kind Sir!

I have to confide to you that the Administrator doesn't always appreciate my light-heartedness . . .

He's probably right.

He's been right up to now.

And don't worry about being attacked by women.

I'm actually jealous, you know . . .

I just get told what to do by them . . .

Alex

It's reassuring to know that those lemurs "become docile and actually quite friendly at the sight of a rood screen". I wonder how they react to riddle screens and riddle curtains.

Incognitus

Rilian, I've found chainsaws to be far more effective, but much louder. Also, you might try beavers - much slower moving, but eat much more wood per body weight. Of course the beaver herder would need to be present to keep them away from the iconostasis, analoys, etc...