www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vatican III: 2050 and the Pan-Orthodox Council of 2070, Part I

Alex,

Its either them or eating too many apples. Both will get you chased out.

But this is getting away from Robert's Alvin Toffler's future-look.

Dear All,

Once upon a time I created an award.

I called it the Order of the Golden Shovel.

Perhaps it could be considered for use as an internet award?

Steve

Dear Alex,

I'm glad that you enjoyed our State. It is quite beautiful with lots to do. When you flew in to Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood you were about 15 minutes from where I live. Wish I'd known.

The sunshine is great. Sometimes it's almost blinding reflecting from the golden shovels that I've awarded myself in my time. :rolleyes:

Come back often.

Steve

Dear Steve,

In that case, to show my self-less humility during Lent, I nominate Cantor Joe as its first recipient!

(Poor Robert! I hope he doesn't feel too upset by how seriously his thread has been taken . . . )

Alex

Thank you Alex for the nomination. But I cannot accept it. Robert's Vatican III post or the April Fools one about a new Pittsburgh coadjutor bishop should be nominated for originality.

I think commentary on Robert's original topic is now in order. I apologize to Robert and his Alvin Toffler-like classic.

Can we get a glimpse of Part II? I want to know how it ends.

Dear Robert,

My own futuristic take on the issue of church unity goes something like this . . .

Over time, the Ecumenical Patriarch will stop trying to be like Rome, whilst maintaining its Primacy as First among Equals in the East, and the Moscow Patriarch will stop acting like Rome, granting complete independence to the Churches of Ukraine, the Baltics and anyone else who would prefer not to be under it.

A Pan-Orthodox Union Council will take place to reunite the Byzantine and Oriental Orthodox families of Churches.

It will be successful, the anathemas against each other's Teachers and Saints will be dropped, and a formula will be worked out whereby the faith contained in the common Councils and praxis of both ecclesial families will become the basis of unity for the One, Holy, Orthodox, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the East.

The Assyrians of the East will unite with the Chalcedonian Catholics with the Assyrian Catholicos becoming the Catholicos of this united Church.

Rome will recognize the Particularity of the Eastern Churches and this process will be facilitated by a greater sense of ecclesial particularity among a number of Western Churches and liturgical traditions.

This process will also be facilitated by the overall ecumenical movement with other Christian churches, the Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist in particular.

The Sarum Use will come up front and center, with traditionalist Anglicans opting for an Anglican Church in communion with the emerging united Orthodox-Catholic Church in communion with Rome and the united Patriarchates of the East.

Christians of Protestant denominations who are fed up with liberalism and who desire an authentically liturgical, Apostolic ecclesial tradition would begin gravitating to one of the Catholic Western traditions, as well as to the Orthodox Churches, both Western and Eastern Rite.

Rome will assert itself as a Particular Church in communion with other Orthodox-Catholic Churches on the basis of the faith of the Scriptures, Tradition, the Councils and the Fathers of the first thousand years.

It will declare its later councils to be local Roman Councils, since the East did not participate in them AND/OR because those later councils did not declare doctrines.

Rome along with Western denominations seeking the fullness of Orthodox/Catholic communion and life, as well as the Eastern Churches, will agree on a Creed without a Filioque, in accordance with the first thousand years of Christendom, AND on a common date of Easter.

A union council will then gather to pronounce on other matters that separate the churches and an agreed statement with canons etc. will be declared that will affirm the Particularity and equality of all Churches on the basis of the historic Orthodox-Catholic faith.

Orthodoxy will affirm the Petrine Primacy, asserting that Rome retains its ancient right to be a court of final ecclesial appeal. Orthodoxy will also agree that infallibility in the Church is exercised when ALL the Patriarchs of the Church sign their names to the canons and doctrines declared by an Ecumenical Council, duly inaugurated and recognized by the universal Church of Christ.

Rome, for its part, will affirm the ages-old rights of Particular Churches to govern themselves free of Vatican meddling, intervention or long-distance snorting.

New Patriarchates in the Church will be able to be set up by the local Churches themselves, needing approval from no one else, but approved by simply informing the other Churches that such has been established.

New Saints in the West will be canonized locally by local hierarchs and bishops' conferences.

Rome will set up a special liturgical commission that includes Western and Eastern liturgical experts, with no Protestants this time, to address liturgical renewal in accordance with Tradition etc.

The new religious division will be between authentic, traditional Christianity and the spirit of this world, between those who wish to adapt to the values of the Gospel, and those who wish the Church to adapt to the values of the world.

Eventually, there would be only one Christian Church, as those left outside will become indistinguishable from contemporary secular agnosticism.

As the Church continues to preach the Gospel to the world, transfiguring culture and values in the light of Christ, many from other religions will enter it.

Finally, Rome will make the recitation of the Jesus Prayer mandatory under pain of sin.

I guess some things just don't change . . .

Alex

I like much of that story. Would that even 10% of it might come true!

But as for pyrohy, I don`t get it. As much as I love the Ukrainians of my Church, their cuisine is beyond me (although, speaking as the grandson of Scotch immigants, I have no cuisine of my own to brag about�except what I lovingly create on my own from myriad cookbooks!), and pyrohy especially: let`s have some starch (dough) with more starch (potato)?! The mind boggles! Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to the attraction of these things�beyond simple, uncomplicated comfort food, I suppose...

Adam, Slavophile but no pyrohyophile

Well, I would like to thank all fo you for your thoughtful remarks about piroghi, sour cream and at least one good response....Oh, and it is April Fools Day...Well happy April Fools

Yours in the Most Holy Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Church of the Old Catholic Anglican Use Rite of the United States, INC. now having 50 bishops and 3 laypeople, oops I mean 2 lay people :rolleyes: ,

Rob

You came all the way to Ft. Lauderdale and you didn't stop by to say hello?!?

Janka

Here's the real story, folks!

What will really happen is that all the recipes will be cooked and there will be a Great Pierogi Synod and Eating Contest.

The person who partakes of the most different recipes will be crowned as the Ecumenical Pierogiarch.

All of us will become Greatly Blessed, especially in girth.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Alex:

At a little Russian store in San Francisco I got a tub of smetana that was labeled "Canadian-Style". Any idea of what that means (smetana-eh?")

Vatican II: 2050 and the Pan-Orthodox Council of 2070, Part II

A Story:

After the re-union of East and West there was exceeding great joy. But the problem of the Old Calendar Greeks and the Society of Saint Pius X was not resolved. Nor were the Protestants or Oriental Orthodox reconciled. His Excellency, Bishop Peter Scott of the Society in reference to the unification of the See of Peter with the Orthodox declared, " this is a false union which is based on false principles. We do not expect it to last! We have decided that Rome has indeed become the Seat of Anti-Christ and we shall elect our own Pope; Rome has given itself over to the abominable Greek heretics. We pray the wrath of SS Peter and Paul upon them!" The Old Calendar Greek Churches came together in Council and Anathematized everybody; so that takes care of that.

The Oriental Orthodox were present at both Councils, but had decided to wait and see how the union between Rome and the Orthodox would hold. His Holiness Pope Mark of the Coptic Church said, "we are weary about this union; in wisdom we will wait until it has concretized. Hasty judgements tend to be mistakes in the end."

The Eastern Catholics in the US who initially favored the union were being liquidated and all their parishes and property were being handed over to the American Patriarchate. The Pontiff gave the Eastern Churches in the US 1 year to be assimilated into the American Patriarchate. The Ruthenian Metropolitan did not like this at all; in fact he was so outraged he wrote Rome with this statement: " Your Holiness, it is with profound sorrow that I must write this letter. In consultation with my brother hierarchs and the presbyteral Council we have decided to leave Communion with you. We did not agree to liquidation and assimilation into the American Patriarchate. We are afraid we will loose our Traditions. This cannot be Your Holiness. THEREFORE, in the Name of the Most Holy Trinity we decide therefore as of 5 April 2072 to leave the Roman Communion. On the same day we will vote on autocephaly and elect a new Metroplitan.

Your Holiness will always be in my prayers.

+Makarios"

The Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate was also told by Rome to liquidate and join the Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate of the MP. His Beatitude Patriarch Miletos of the Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate stated with great sorrow, "for hundreds of years we have been faithful to Rome, but this mandatum is unacceptable. We will not join with the Communist MP! The blood of the martyrs would cry against us. With our brothers the Carpatho-Rusyns in the US we also decide to leave your Communion; but we see ourselves as carrying the torch of the true Catholic Faith. Since your Holiness is unyielding in his demand that we liquidate we in Solemn Synod, declare your mandate null and void and until such time as a suitable agreement can be made we will remain seperated from Rome."

The Society of Saint Pius X elected Pope Ignatius.

"Tu Es Petrus!" cried a crowd of 3 million. The Society, now called by its adherants: the true Roman Catholic Church, now has 50 million communicants which certainly makes its pontificate a competetor to the Roman one. His Holiness Pope Ignatius delcared, "We Solemenly Declare, Decree, and Make Known by our Apostolic Authority that the Pope that now resides in Rome is Anti-Pope and Anti-Christ! We hereby Anathametize him and all his followers along with the Orthodox. By our Sacred Will we shall convene a Council to restore the Missale Romanum of Pope Pius V and all the Traditions of the Most Holy Roman Church. We are the true Heirs of Trent and the Rightful One to sit upon the throne in the Lateran. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spritui Sancto! Amen!"

The Ukrainian Patriarchate decided to enter Communion with the Pope Ignatius. The Ruthenians were so shocked at this their Metropolitan declared, "We cannot believe our brother Ukrainians would enter communion with those loopy Lefebvrists, Oy Vey!"

The Old Calendarists again Anathematized everyone; so there was no dispute about who was the True Orthodox Church of Christ. The Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church Anathematized the Greek Old Calendarists for being to liberal; for they are the REAL Most Holy Russian Church. Metropolitan Daniel of the ROAC said, "You know when the Greeks brought Orthodoxy to Russia they forgot to bring it back with them." (Laughing Bolsterously)

The Pope in Rome asked the Patriarch of Constantinopolis what to do about the Greek Catholics leaving the Communion and he said jokingly, "Ah, who cares about the Uniates anyway they were just wannabees." The Pope angrily got up and left His All-Holiness' office. "What?" said His All-Holiness, "You Latins are to serious, ugh, if you were only Greek...well I think I watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding again."

Things are starting to heat up; I wonder what will happen next? Stay tuned to see...

In the Pantokrator,


Robert Horvath

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Dear Friends,

This is a really neat thread. I loved Robert's story. It very well may come true, to an extent.

In Roman Catholic prophecy there are several prophecies which prophesy a great "Era of Peace" prior to the time of Antichrist. At the beginning of this "Era of Peace" there will be a great Ecumenical Council that will solve all disputations on Sacred Scripture, condemn every heresy, and unite the Christian world. Here are quotes from some approved private revelations which pertain to this great Ecumenical Council,

The Ecstatic of Tours: "The Council will meet again after the Victory (the victory over all godless forces in the world, prior to this great Council, this seemed to indicate that the great ecumenical council may have began shortly prior to the Era of Peace) But, this time men will be obliged to obey; there will be only one flock and one shepherd. All men will acknowledge the Pope as the Universal Father, the King of all peoples. Thus mankind will be regenerated."

~

Jeanne de Royer - Sister Nativitas Clarissin of Fourgeres (1731-1798)

"I see in God a great power, led by the Holy Ghost, which will restore order through a second upheaval. I see in God a large assembly of pastors who will uphold the rights of the church and of her Head. They will restore the former disciplines (This fits well with Robert's idea of the end of the "Vatican II experiment"). I see in particular, two servants of the Lord who will distinguish themselves in this glorious struggle and who, by the grace of Holy Ghost will fill with ardent zeal the hearts of this illustrious assembly." (The two people mentioned here might be the, "Holy Pope" and "Great Monarch" of the prophesied Era of Peace.)

~

Holzhauser: "By the grace of God, by the power of the Great Monarch (Catholic leader who will rule the world in Catholic faith), by the authority of the Holy Pontiff (Spiritual leader of the world during the Era of Peace), and by the union of all the most devout princes, atheism and every heresy will be banished from the earth. The Council will define the true sense of Holy Scripture, and this will be believed and accepted by everyone."

~

I pray that this Great Ecumenical Council happens in the near future!

A sinner,

Adam

Vatican III: 2050 and the Pan-Orthodox Synod of 2070, Part III

A Story:

The Holy Father returning to the Curia convened a meeting with Cardinal Antony, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "Your Eminence" said the Pope, "What am I to do? The Church is one and yet I feel something is wrong; we have conceded to the Orthodox, but I feel within me a deep pain of conscience that will not go away."

"Your Holiness, could it be that we have comprimised to much, I don't know? We have removed over half our clergy because of their unwillingness to make the Profession of Faith; the abuses have been curtailed, our liturgy is restored and we are one with the Orthodox. It is a difficult time Your Holiness with the Rise of the Levebrist Pope Ignatius. Many of our people are going over into his group every day. They say each day over 10,000 people come into the Society and 100's of Churches are being built. They now have over 70 million members with the mass conversions in Africa and Latin America. When we created a sui juris Church for those who desired the 1962 Missal we thought that would save the Church if the Reforms of Vatican II fell through. Glory be to God we did that, but they are all under that Anti-Pope Ignatius now because of his golden-mouthed Sophistry. Pope Ignatius has offered them power and prestige; he is now declaring Your Holiness to be not only a false-Pope, but also Anti-Christ!" "Your Eminence let us pray, let us pray for the return of Christ; I am weary, so weary" Before the the High Altar in the Sistine Chapel they prayed and wept.

Back in Athens, Greece His All-Holiness was holding a Synodical meeting and deliberating over the issues involved with union with Rome. "Your All-Holiness" said one of his Counselor's "We no longer have Hagia Sophia in Constantinople due to the Turks why not take back your Basilica in Rome. We now number greater than the Latins and it is only right that we should have what was once ours." "Hmm, you are right; let me see what can be done" said His All-Holiness.

Holding a secret meeting with the UN His All-Holiness negotiated the transfer of the St. Peter's to the Greek Church. "I will see the day" said His All-Holiness, "that the Roman Church will be no more; they departed from Orthodoxy and now they are Orthodox by their union with us, they must take our traditions and Rite or be obliterated! Within their theology lies the seeds of heresy to make this happen all over again; it must be prevented!"

In Menzingen, Switzerland, the new Seat of the Counter-Pope Ignatius his Curia is deliberating on actions to be taken against the "Anti-Pope".
"As the Vicar of Christ on the Earth I condemn and Anathematize this false Pope in Rome and I call all of my children to outdue a hundred times the missionary work of that Anti-Christ! You are all missionaries. All must work for Holy Mother Church! He who does not do his part will be cast into the lake of fire. To the most abominable heretics I pronounce: Anathema sit!"

The World Council of Churches has refused any part in the union with Rome and Orthodoxy. The General Secretary declared, "We are Church. Women do not go back to being second class citizens; gay and lesbians do not go back in the closet. No we refuse to reject progress. With Luther we declare the Church is invisible; we do not need to join in this venture between Rome and Orthodoxy. Nevertheless we shall remain cordial and have fraternal relations with them."

Back in Rome Our Lord has been appearing to the ailing Pontiff. "My Son the time is short; do not be afraid for I will sift the wheat from the tares; you will not wait much longer." Said Our Lord to the Pope. "Thank you my blessed Lord; forgive my weakness." As the Lord left the weak Pontiff He imparted His blessing to His much maligned Vicar.

Is our Lord Coming soon? Will he vindicate His Church? Wait and see...

In Christ,


Robert Horvath

It is so refreshing to see Rome returning to here traditions.... and concerning Pope Ignatius, I'll send him a bunch of my "special" biscuits, containing l*x*ta*iv*s......

Anton