www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Union with Rome reconsidered

Dear Friends,

For the sake of argument, I ask for your views on this question that I've never publicly made mention of before.

After all our discussions about how the Orthodox East has always adhered to points of doctrine and discipline that Rome has taught - and has taught much later than the East - and the like, what ultimately did the Union with Rome of 1596 (in particular) give the Kyivan Metropolia that it did not have before as an Orthodox Church?

Did this Union "add" anything significant to the faith as always held by the Orthodox Church of Kyiv and by the Orthodox Church as a whole?

Did this Union ever enhance the growth opportunities of our Church as an Eastern Particular Church?

Did it not, instead, harm that growth and harm its spiritual and canonical traditions via Latinized forms and traditions that were imposed on our Church (either within or without)?

Have not the 33 points of the Union of Brest been betrayed and broken so as to beg the question of its continued validation from a canonical point of view?

Rome itself has currently, through its ecumenical theologians, said that the Unias of history were a bad example of achieving church union and that they can never be considered a model for any future ecclesial reunification.

So where does that leave us? Does this not make our existence even more precarious, even without the issue of the roadblocks "uniatism" continues to represent in Orthodox-Catholic dialogue?

Is it not time for Eastern Catholics and the UGCC in particular to consider a return to their Mother Orthodox Churches while achieving a new understanding of the role of Rome as first among equals - and anything above and beyond that as being up to a future reunion council between Rome and Orthodoxy?

There, I've said it . . .

Alex

Shlomo Ayo (Brother) Alex,

Your closing point: "Is it not time for Eastern Catholics and the UGCC in particular to consider a return to their Mother Orthodox Churches..."

A better phraseology whould be: "Is it not time for most Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine Tradition and the UGCC in particular to consider a return to their Mother Orthodox Churches..."

Since not all Eastern Catholic are from Byzantine Tradition and therefore do not have Eastern Orthodox Counterparts to "go back" too. Further, the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church does not have a legitimate counterpart in Eastern Orthodoxy.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

why dont the orthodox churches rejoin the Catholic church?

...or, why don't the Catholics rejoin the Orthodox?

I don't know the answer to either question.

Dan L

Dear Alex:

At the risk of sounding like a typical Ukrainian who will put politics and nationalism above all else, Rome's latest refusal to "erect" a Kyivan patriarchate has led my humble self to conclude that the Unia has indeed outlived its usefullness.

I know that I have defended the Unia in the past and, in the past, I maintain that it did have some positive effects. But in this day and age ...

Do the Unia add anything significant to the faith? Probably not. It certainly gave us Latinization (whether imposed upon us or not) . It also gave us the feeling of being "second class Catholics" and, in essence, did create somewhat of an identity crisis within our Church.

Since Rome refuses to recognize (not erect, but recognize) our rights as a sui juris Church with a Patriarch at its head, then we are left with little choice but to excommunicate Rome.

Much more I could write, but I think you get the picture.

Yours,

hal

well....it comes down to what one believes is the true church and which one is in schism. judge the faith on doctrine and not the politics. one is catholic because they believe it holds the fullness and complete truth, same with orthodox christians. its a individual choice. and things like this takes patience. trust in God and that he will guide our church leaders to make the right decisions. one thing i know is that the catholic church cant please everyone therefor it should stick to its guns and never worry abt what non-church members say.

Dear Hal,

I'll talk to you directly since those other non-Ukrainians here (including the Administrator) just don't understand us Ukies!

His Beatitude Lubomyr put the question to Rome about recognizing our patriarchate.

His Eminence Cardinal Kasper is of the view that Rome should now give a quick reply to the UGCC - we both know what he wants that reply to entail.

If Rome indeed comes out and says "NADA" to the Ukies, what will we do at this point?

We can't go back to "hoping against hope" about a patriarchate - that really would be silly after we get Rome's replay ("Roma locuta, causa finita").

And the point is that Rome's "no" will be directly and publicly tied to its politics with Moscow (Mateusz, we Ukies aren't the only ones involved with politics - Rome is a master at that!).

And many Ukies have always linked their ties with Rome, yes, along the lines of some sort of national pride i.e. that we are not with Moscow, our oppressor, and the like.

Will we continue to be as proud when we finally realize we, AS CATHOLICS, are second-fiddle to Orthodox Moscow in Rome's geopolitics?

Personally, I don't see how we can.

I don't know the answer.

Everyone else may now return to discussions of the Filioque, papal infallibility and which is the "True Church." )

In sorrow,

Alex

Dear Alex --

I was debating about posting this, but I concluded that it will be done out of charity.

I was born Roman Catholic and then became a Melkite. I have now been Orthodox (OCA) for over two years. When I was a Melkite I had these concerns and they are not easy to deal with. However, looking back now after becoming Orthodox, my fears then seem so insignificant.

If you take a broad look at this forum, you will find many topics such as "Are we Orthodox?", "Can we say we are Orthodox in Communion with Rome?", "Rome does not recognize us as sui juris", etc. Obviously, participants on this forum have hit a brick wall because of Rome; their spiritual growth cannot blossom under the yoke of Roman ecclesiology; they are constantly at war between ahearing to Orthodox teaching and heretical teachings (infallibility, Augustinian original sin, etc).

Why not put that behind so that you can grow in Christ within the fullness of Truth of the Church?

Rome can only be first among equals when she returns to Orthodoxy.

Greg

well my stance and humble opinion as a ukrainian catholic, and i very new one i may add. i would love to see a ukrainian catholic patriarchate. would also love to see a catholic-orthodox church re-union(God-willing) but i am catholic first.

Dear Greg,

All this is certainly something that will come to the fore for many Ukie Catholics in the near future, I am sure.

Some of us may even become Orthodox for actual spiritual reasons, as opposed to political ones too!

(You don't have to be a Ukie to understand us, but it certainly helps!)

Alex

Dear Greg:

I am afraid you got the "flow" on the reverse!

AmdG

RE: Return to Orthodoxy versus return to Catholicism.

If the Schism is a Great Divorce, wouldn't it be better if BOTH returned to each other?

Both Daddy and Mommy were very bad to one another years ago. Our current imperfect communion situation serves as a good reason why we should NOT use the church as a role model for marriage.

The blame games should end. If not for each other, at least for the innocent children who try to make sense why one of the other parents is never home.

Personally, I think all the church leaders should get a good spanking and a time-out for their irreconcilable differences that are/were more important than the needs of the children.

And like most marriages that end in divorce, aren't most schisms the result of parental politics?

Pitting the children against one parent or the other is pitiful. Divorce is ugly, but so is church politics.

Dear Joe:

I agree with you.

This was a gradual estrangement between members of one family! Both just stopped talking to each other.

Let's have a "re-marriage" soon or, at least, a reconciliation?

AmdG

Ok, now let's just imagine that all Ukrainian Greek Catholics become Orthodox like Alex mentions at the beggining of this thread. What will we do with all these Basilians running around?
Lauro

Well Mateusz I'm glad to hear you joined.
I'm guessing by reading your name that you are Polish born, perhaps with a Ukrainian (Rusyn) Greek Catholic heritage. Can you tell us a bit about yourself, where you and your familly are from, and why you converted to the UGCC from the RC. It will help us undersand your perspective better (not criticize it).

Hritzko