www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Union with Rome reconsidered

Anyone want to consider what the Father and Head of the UGCC has to say about the subject:


CONCERNING THE VISIT OF CARDINAL WALTER KASPER TO MOSCOW [ugcc.org.ua]

Will the Orthodox and Catholic churches reunite? Will Brittney Spears leave the music industry to join a ROCOR convent? Will the Episcopalians ordain a goat?

I really don't give a flying fart. I have my soul to worry about.

Now, now Orthodox Dutchman...

We all need to look after our souls, but Orthodox/Catholic unity is profoundly more important to some than Britney Spears joining a ROCOR convent, which for some reason...I don't think is going to happen!!!! :rolleyes:

Let us all remember that this is Great and Holy Lent, and that although our stomachs may growl with hunger, and our nerves may be frayed from lack of B-vitamins and too many prayer and liturgical services, that all this is for a reason...that we may become more loving Christian human beings...

With much love in Christ,
and wishing you a most blessed Lent and Pascha,
your Orthodox sister,
Alice

P.S....the bits about Britney Spears joining a ROCOR convent, and the Episcopalians ordaining a goat did give me a chuckle, I will admit!

Oh my...shame on you O.D..... Doing my work in the library then to be faced with the image of Britney in the clothing of a monaxina...oh my...but she imagine the singing that will appear in the convent....

Anton

I spoke to Britney yesterday and she informed me that she is against the UGCC and their plans. However, she did agree to write and perform a song for the UGCC titled: "Oops, Rome Did It Again".

Also, she is not planning on joining ROCOR...at least not yet.

Greg

Father Deacon John,

Yes, our Patriarch's statement is very wise and prudent.

What is clear from it is that neither he nor his Synod nor the Ukrainian Catholic faithful will back down on this matter either.

We are going to be a true "Loyal Opposition" to Rome on this important issue concerning our ecclesial Life in Christ.

And we are therefore poised to be a true thorn in Rome's side from now on.

If Rome - or anyone - thinks otherwise, they will be sorely mistaken.

By refusing to recognize our patriarchate on the basis of Rome-Moscow ecumenical politics, Rome has made a big mistake.

I personally don't foresee the UGCC separating from Rome over the matter.

I truly think Rome and Moscow would like nothing better.

No, we will stay with Rome and give it the great grief over its injustice toward our martyred Church that it richly deserves.

May the Lord God bless His Holiness the Pope of Rome.

Alex

To my dear Orthodox Friends here,

Apart from the important issue of Orthodox and Catholic relations, I think that it is also important for you all to understand that the behaviour of the Russian Orthodox Church and world Orthodoxy toward the Ukrainians, both Orthodox and Catholics, is even MORE reprehensible than that of Rome.

I have yet to hear from a major Orthodox source any word of criticism of the ROC's imperialistic stance toward Ukrainian Orthodoxy - and the UGCC.

The now-common reference to Ukrainian Catholic and (autocephalous)Orthodox churches by the Russian religious press as "Uniate-Raskols" is simpy unworthy of Orthodox Christians.

The ecclesiacide of the UGCC with the tacit involvement of the ROC has never been admitted by the MP.

Even if the argument that the MP was the unwitting dupe of soviet forces would have some credence if the ROC didn't continue to pursue the same church politics that it did under communism.

One may only conclude, then, that the ROC agreed with soviet policies toward our Churches and it continues to do so - the soviet policies and those of Tsarist Russia being one continuous expression of historic Russian imperialism in which the ROC was always a willing partner in imposing.

While we critique Rome here, please do not assume that we see world Orthodoxy as a sudden friend of ours.

World Orthodoxy has shown itself to be not a friend at all.

Canonical issues aside, one major problem with world Orthodoxy, as I see it, is how jurisdictional squabbles can constitute major canonical problems for Orthodoxy - while church imperialism and ecclesiacide is simply glossed over.

World Orthodoxy could have shown itself to be truly a follower of Christ by excommunicating the Russian Church for its past and enduring actions in Eastern Europe.

Shame on world Orthodoxy!

Alex

Gregory,

The tone of your posts is remarkably identical to the fundamentalist nonsense that I put up with years ago.

I know Catholic doctrine a lot better than you think. What I do NOT do is trumpet on an Orthodox website that MY Chuch is the PURE, TRUE, REAL Church.

Nobody knows this for sure until facing the judgement of God.

Believe it about Orthodoxy if you wish. I don't really care. There has been at least one other Catholic convert to Orthodoxy who posted here years ago and said the same things you do. I have also known of Orthodox converts to Catholicism who don't feel the need to trumpet their new church as you do.

I posted a while back that the way RCs, ECs and EOs go after each other here is at times disgusting. I lost my temper and went after you. I apologize for that. I did not act like I should have.

No matter how much the East and West trumpet their differences, we divided the Church Jesus Christ gave to us with our own acitons and words.

Unlike Protestantism, which took a part of Christianity and has hopelessly fragmented itself into 40,000 or more denominations, we Catholics and Orthodox have apostolic succession and Holy Tradition as well as the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments for us heathen Latins).

What is needed is a spirit of forgiveness and Christian Charity. I am a Latin, not Eastern. I am Polish, not Ukranian (well, maybe there is some Ukie blood somewhere in my dad's family's distant past - I may never know, but why else would I be interested in the East). God has protected the UGCC despite Stalin's best (worst) efforts to destroy it and kill its followers. Therfore, the UGCC and its martyrs are worthy of all our prayers.

�No estoy, que soy tu madre?

Our Lady of Guadalupe to Saint Juan Diego, Tepeyac, December 1531

Bravo to Alex for speaking the truth in love about Orthodoxy's collusion with ecclesiaside and other acts unworthy of human beings, never mind purported Christians!

Lest nobody think what Alex is saying is simply unsubstantiated polemics in the heat of the moment, I refer you to (once more) the formidable Robert Taft, this time in his �The Problem of �Uniatism� and the �Healing of Memories:� Anamnesis, not Amnesia,� *Logos: A Journal of Eastern Christian Studies*, vol. 41-42 (2000-2001): 155-196. Taft provides the most damning documentation I have seen of all these problems and I think his arguments have gone unanswered by Orthodox theologians and hierarchs because they know he is right and they know they cannot answer him--except to say "Mea culpa," which they never will.

Adam

P.S. Taft's article, in a slightly different format, is available on line at www.saintelias.com [saintelias.com] (under Announcements)

I am trying to defend Catholicism from her point of view and trying to present Orthodox teaching in contrast and it is regarded as fundamentalist nonsense. Good one. :rolleyes:

Go ahead...at least I would respect your stance as faithful to your Church's OWN TEACHING. The Catholic Church believes that she ALONE is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. This is basic Catholic teaching. Why is this so difficult to understand? And, why is it wrong to proclaim this?

Is there any Catholic on this board who would like to defend this? Of course you can know for sure.

No need to apologize! I like your temper!

Is there any Catholic on this board who would like to defend this? The Church is divided? :rolleyes:

Yes, Orthodoxy has its problems. It is made up of sinful men. Like me. May Orthodox Christians turn their (my) hearts towards Christ and serve with love, forgiveness, patience and humility!

Even though I firmly believe that the Orthodox Church alone is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, I am still a sinner and I have no right to judge anyone. I can only try to defend the Faith!

Greg

Yes, duzhe dobrij Pan Doktor!

The MP is seeing parishes slip away to the KP, and now with greater recognition of the UGCC a possibility, it is again redoubling the polemic efforts. But one just can't make 1946 go away, as one cannot make the Holocaust nor the Holodomor go away.

I would caution use and discussion of "ecclesiacide" as certainly the Russian Church has experienced a most horrendous persecution itself under godless Communism, which Fr. Taft himself has mentioned.

While the MP reproaches and attitude are certainly reprehensible for a Christian church, and far exceed any and all problems we have with Rome, we cannot also simply pretend everything is fine with Rome, either.

If the gratuitous language of Oreintalium Ecclesiorum, Orientale Lumen, etc. are really meaningful to Rome, she should foster her Eastern children towards that particularity She claims they should have.

There are exceptions to the mea culpa, Adam. I wish more Orthodox would indeed heed the words of that most eminent Orthodox theologian, Bishop Kallistos, as he himself has come to realize the error in the attitude of the MP, and says so in his reprint of the "Orthodox Church".

Taft's words in this paper cited by Adam are indeed most erudite, timely and most balanced as he often is. Just to clarify, this article "Amnesis, not amnesia" was the text of a lecture he gave at St. Michael's College in Toronto back in 2000. Thanks to Logos for making it available.

You're not talking about this website, are you? Last time I checked it was Byzantine Catholic.

Interesting discussion. Say, why don't you request a patriarchate in Brno for all Slavic ECs. Brno, after all, was the seat of St. Methodius. Well, at least before his followers got the boot by Rome. It would be interesting to see Rome "invite" it back.

Wait, that's right. Brno is not in Ukraine and it HAS to be in Ukraine (or Rome) to be valid for Ukrainians.

Don't take offense. As my son says, "Stop it! You're teasing!"

I just thought of a better idea. Send Alex to Brno and he can convince the Czechs and then go East and convince the Slovaks they are actually UKRAINIANS!!!! Then they wouldn't mind you putting in a patriarchate in Brno and you would have your patriarch in Ukraine! Well, far Western Ukraine. :p

I really shouldn't be picking on you, Alex. It's really intellectually unfair. I'm going to get clobbered!

p.s.

ALEX! Empty your mailbox. I'm trying to send you a PM I'm certain you can't miss! I mean that sarcastically.