www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West One date for Easter when?

It seems that everything is nothing but dead letters, the Churches have not taken any serious attempt to celebrate Easter on a single date.

Why can't the Roman Church have the Easter one week later and celebrate it according to the New-Julian Calendar? And they're suposed to be more commited to Ecumenism than anyone else! Even the Eastern Catholics are doing the Latin Pascha and not the Eastern one.

It's not big deal, they will loose nothing by doing that, it would be an enormous sign of unity. Is there any movement in favour of this? Why don't you collect signatures and give them to your bishops?

I don't think the Catholic bishops really have any say in this matter. As it is written, so shall it be done.

I hope that I am wrong, but it seems that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

As long as everyone in the media and the world have become comfortable with the concept of a different date for Easter in the East and in the West, there will be no push to change it.

There seemed to have been some talk a few years back, (with an Orthodox bishop visiting my church going so far as explaining the dating so through and through, that he concluded that the West was now more correct than the East) but I haven't heard anything recently.

*If I am wrong in my pessimism, I humbly ask the good priests of this forum, (or anyone else int the ecclesiastical know) to please correct me.

(Interestingly, Armando told me that the Roman Catholics of Greece, except in Crete, celebrate Easter on the same day as the Orthodox of Greece...)

Alice

"Even the Eastern Catholics are doing the Latin Pascha and not the Eastern one." That's the second bit of doom and gloom from our Mexican this morning. It also happens to be inaccurate. The large majority of Eastern Catholics celebrate the canonical Pascha and are looking forward to doing just that this coming weekend.

Incognitus

Armando did have me confused about the date of Easter in Greece for the RCs but hearing that for some reason Crete is not in line with the other RCs in Greece puts my mind at rest.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Alice,

while that Orthodox Bishop may be right in saying that the Gregorian calendar may be more correct, IMHO, I believe that the Latin date of Easter is in violation of the canons of 1 Nicea.
The question bears asking.. what carries more weight... the Canons of an Ecumenical Council or Astrology ?
I always thought that the decisions of an Ecumenical council were binding on all of Christendom and could not be changed.
It would be much easier for the Latin Church to move their Paschal date in line with the East. (Although, I'm not sure of the impact this would have on non-Apostolic ecclesial communities.)

Brad

Maybe Alice the bishop was talking about the calendar in general rather than the date of Easter itself.

ICXC
NIKA

When did Alice become a bishop?

Dave

Dave *grabbed by the back of the neck and pulled forward to meet a thump* dear fellow Alice said she was conversing with the Bishop who sared his wisdoms with her over a cuppa or two.

*Pavel then king hits Dave while smiling through clenched teeth for the benefit of others*

Now back to my chat.

ICXC
NIKA

I think that Alice might have been referring to a discussion of the Aleppo proposal. Remarks on it from SCOBA are here:
http://www.scoba.us/resources/aleppo.asp

The Allepo calculation is similar in effect, but not identical, to the present Western one.

Nothwithstanding Brad's comment, the argument that Western calculation is more in-line with what was promulgated at Nicea I, as much we know it, than the present Eastern one, has much merit; in previous threads I've linked to a number of Orthodox writers who agree on this point.

I am not sure what astrology has to do with it, Brad; perhaps you mean astronomy? Astronomical observation was part of the Nicea I idea; why should this be abandoned?

And the Aleppo Statement itself can be found here: http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/faith/easter.html

The way I see it, the Julian Paschalion was determined by using the most accurate scientific methods people had at the time, in order to put into effect the decision that the Council of Nicea reached regarding the date of Pascha.

Similarly, the Gregorian Paschalion used the most accurate scientific methods available then, in order to implement the decision of the Council of Nicea.

Recently, the proposal that emerged from the consulation at Aleppo uses the most accurate scientific methods that we have today, in order to remain faithful to what the Council of Nicea decided.

Each of the three ways of calculating the date of Pascha uses the best methods available at the time. All three ways are thus equally faithful to the Council of Nicea's decision regarding the date of Pascha. As our science has improved, however, the accuracy in determining the date of Pascha has similarly improved.

The Julian Paschalion is just as faithful to Nicea as the Gregorian Paschalion is, but the Gregorian Paschalion is more accurate than the Julian Paschalion is. Thus the Gregorian Paschalion better implements the decision taken at Nicea.

In the same way, the Gregorian Paschalion is just as faithful to Nicea as the Aleppo recommendation is, but the Aleppo recommendation is more accurate than the Gregorian Paschalion is. Thus the Aleppo proposal better implements the decision taken at Nicea.

That's how I (a fallible human) see it.

I also understand that the Council of Nicea valued unity in the celebration of Pascha far more than the Council valued accuracy. So, if all the western Churches adopted the Julian Paschalion, the sitution would be much better than what we have now, in that we would then have unity in the date of celebration. However, if everyone adopted the proposal of the Aleppo consultation, then that would be even better, because then Christianity would have both unity and accuracy in the date of the celebration of Pascha.

(If, on the other hand, all Christian Churches adopted the Aleppo recommendation, and this led to new schisms, the result would be much worse than what we have today, because this would be sacrificing unity for accuracy.)

And before we again get into the whole conversation about how we're not supposed to celebrate our Pascha "with the Jews", I would like to point to the third bullet point under paragraph five in http://www.scoba.us/resources/aleppo.asp . What the Council of Nicea tells us is that we are supposed to ignore whatever the Jews do in terms of how they calculate the date of their Passover. Ironically, the argument that Pascha must be celebrated after the Jewish Passover actually contravenes the decision reached at Nicea, in that "celebrating Pascha after Jewish Passover" uses the date of Jewish Passover to calculate the date of Pascha. This is exactly the kind of thing that the Council of Nicea was trying to avoid: "If the Jews want to change how they calculate the date of their Passover, thus causing the date to be incorrect, let them! We don't care. We will continue to calculate the date of Pascha according to how it was calculated when Jesus was on this earth." See, for example, an article by Fr. John Dresko of the OCA [dneoca.org] (written several years before the Aleppo consultation ocurred) and this article by Archbishop Peter of the Antiochian Archdiocese [antiochian.org] (also written a few years before the Aleppo proposal).

This is all, of course, merely my perhaps-not-as-humble-as-it-ought-to-be opinion. ;-)


Peace,
Alex NvV

Mexican,

I second Incognitus' observation that you have been awfully pessimistic of late! I've said before that I'm not an overly optimistic person and consider myself more of a realist, but you're certainly doing your bit to bring me down today! I don't think your apparent pessimism is a result of a realistic assessment of the facts, either.

Logos Teen

Greetings to all.

Is there anything we can do, as laymen, to request a unified date for the Great Feast of Feast of Feasts?

Should we petition our Metropolitans/Bishops requesting a unified date?

Also, what steps, if any, does a parish need to do to comform to the Julian Calendar? Are there any Byzcath parishes following the Julian Calendar?

In Christ,

Michael

I believe that Saint Elias in Brampton Canada does:

http://www.saintelias.com/ca/calendar/

Scroll to the bottom of the page for the footnotes where it says that the parish follows the Julian Calendar.

The UGCC in Australia and New Zealand are in the Julian calandar totally. The Melkites are on the Gregorian totally.

ICXC
NIKA