www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Pope Laments "Dying" Churches in the West

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI lamented the seemingly "dying" church in Europe and the United States and raised questions about the soaring number of priests in Asia and Africa in a lengthy, off-the-cuff speech to Italian priests.

Benedict also expressed sadness at the plight of divorced Roman Catholics who remarry without getting an annulment, reaffirming that they cannot receive Communion but stressing they should feel they still belong to the church.

The pope made the remarks to priests from the northern Valle d'Aosta region in a two-hour closed meeting Monday in Introd, near where he has been vacationing. The Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, published a transcript of the remarks Wednesday.

The pope began his remarks, which touched on Marx, the upheavals in Europe of 1968 and other topics, by stressing that a pope isn't an "oracle" and "is infallible only in rare situations." Benedict previously has stressed that he intends to listen to others and not do only his will as pope.

He then delved into the issues raised by the Aosta bishop on the concerns of priests, noting that he was recently visited by bishops from Africa and Sri Lanka, where the number of priests is skyrocketing. In Europe and elsewhere, the number of priests has fallen sharply.

Benedict he said the "joy" at the growing numbers of churchmen in the developing world is accompanied by "a certain bitterness" because some would-be priests were only looking for a better life.

"Becoming a priest, they become almost like a head of a tribe, they are naturally privileged and have another type of life," he said. "So the wheat and the chaff go together in this beautiful growth of vocations.

"Bishops have to be very attentive to discern (among the candidates) and not just be happy to have many future priests, but to see which ones really are the true vocations � discern between the wheat and the chaff," he said.

Benedict also touched on another his favorite themes: the state of the church in Europe. He said in contrast to the developing world, where there is a "springtime of faith," the West was "a world that is tired of its own culture, a world that has arrived at a time in which there's no more evidence of the need for God, much less Christ, and in which it seems that man alone can make himself.

"This is certainly a suffering linked, I'd say, to our time, in which generally one sees that the great churches appear to be dying," he said, mentioning Australia, Europe and the United States.

Benedict also responded to a question about giving the Eucharist to divorcees who remarry without getting a church annulment. The church says divorcees who remarry civally cannot receive Communion, arguing they are in a state that "contrasts with God's law."

The pope reaffirmed the teaching, although he acknowledged the suffering it has caused and said further study is needed. He mentioned in particular the case of when someone gets married in a church without being a true believer, is divorced, remarries and discovers his or her faith, but isn't allowed to receive Communion.

In reaffirming the policy, he said the church had to respect "the good of the community and the good of the sacrament" as well as help those who are suffering. He said priests should teach that suffering is necessary "and this is a noble form of suffering."

Some Italian media reports have suggested the pope was reconsidering the ban, and that the issue would come up at a bishops' meeting in October dedicated to the Eucharist. The question has long been a concern for Benedict; in the 1990s, bishops from his native Germany asked for flexibility on the matter.

The 78-year-old Benedict marked his 100th full day as pope Thursday, a papacy already far longer than the 33-day term of John Paul I. Benedict's immediate predecessor, John Paul II, was pope for more than 26 years.
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Let's not be one of those churches to be lamented!

Gordo

Dear Gordo,

This brings to my mind once again, the materialistic society we live in. We have every gadget, form of entertainment, and luxury that man can dream of. Yet, we still spend so much time searching for more to make us happy.

May we truly search our hearts for ways to focus on the simple, the sacrificial, and the holy.

Peace in Christ, Tammy

I agree, Tammy. When our hearts become fixed on the temporal, we lose sight of the things that are eternal and transcendent. I believe that this is one of the great things about our Church - the emphasis on the Mystery of God and His merciful love for mankind!

Gordo

DocBrian,

After going back over the thread you sight I find no support for your accusations. Perhaps Scandanavian was scandalized that Christians would resort to the type of behavior gay protestors have used aginst the Church. I found noone supporting the gay rights movement. DJS supported their right to public gathering provided no lewdness takes place. Quite a few posters sided with you on that thread.

Please don't assume anything baout members of the forum based on participation. Many simply don't post at all. Others post very little. Most don't read all threads. So please do not start judging members loyalty to Church teaching based on particiaption in the threads.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Perhaps you are seeing things that don't exist, except in your own mind?

There are those who believe that truth is something to be hammered into people, thrown in their face as if they would, by the very weight of the truth shared, be logically convinced by it or shamed into embracing it.

Then there are those who believe that truth, by its very nature, has its own beauty and appeal, if it is revealed to others in a way that they can understand it and, God willing, accept it. In a way, it is like a process of translation or accomodation, without compromising any principle or integrity. This is truly an incarnational principle.

Every act of man has within it the seed of truth. Even sinful deeds are based in some disfigured way on this principle. A good is desired, but the means to or the order in attaining it are immoral. (This is an Augustinian principle which he expounds at length in his Confessions.) The challenge of those of us who desire to lead others to the truth is to always discover and acknowledge the good and the value that is hidden within even the sin, so that the "evil can be overcome with good" by choosing a moral path to fully realize the good.

Merely telling people that they are wrong or calling them names adds nothing to their conversion, although it can feel gratifying for the one doing the telling. My sense is that it can only drive others further into sin.

Again, going with the distinction I made earlier re: the movement vs. individual sin...

I do not oppose taking courageous stands and actions against the "Gay Rights" movement. As a husband and a father I have grave concerns about how this movement is making use of media and our schools to spread this ideology that is poisonous to a child's morality, family life and society in general. (This is happening even in Catholic schools. That is one of the reasons why we homeschool, although not the primary reason.) As a citizen and as a Catholic, I also believe I have an obligation to oppose it.

With that said, that does not make me or anyone else who may not share your direct (and sometimes abrasive) "style" of telling the truth sympathizers with the sin or the movement. We also tell the truth and desire to protect our families...and we also justly sympathize with others who suffer from some kind of sin, although we ourselves may not struggle with the same kind.

Our ultimate goal, and I sincerely believe that you share this goal,is to win the sinner back and to stop the spread of evil in the world...beginning, of course, with the evil within ourselves!

Gordo

LOL! You don't even realize that you bought into the propaganda!

The implication was purposely made that the egg throwing and other behavior was on the part of "Christians" and even you accepted this as a basic part of the story. This was intentional.

No where did the original story say anything about "Christian" protesters. They could have been neo-Nazis for all we know.

But the discussion there took place under the misrepresentation that the ill-behavior was engaged in by Christians, and that "gay rights marchers" were thus victimized at the hands of "intolerant" Christians.

No one knows what the gay rights advocates did DURING the march to precipitate the behavior.

But we DO know that the march was forced upon this community by judicial fiat, against the express desires of those representing the citizens locally (the council) as well as those representing the citizens nationally (the Prime Minister.)

Yet the focus of that thread and the posters was not the defense of decency and the right of a people to adopt and enforce standards of conduct, but upon the "gay rights" victims, who were made out to be victims of Egg & Epithet -throwing "Christians" when no proff of this exists.

Thank you for proving my points. Scandanavian purposely posted a misleading title for the thread, and everyone fell for this deceit.

You are making grave assumptions here.


Some of us do not live in the USA - we fight our battles in a way which is appropriate to where we are .

Please, because we are not vocal , do not assume we are

We really have, over the years, discussed this issue to death. I haven't read anything new in recent posts that hasn't been written before. I think many of us made our positions clear long ago, and see little point in repeating them over and over again.

Dear DocBrian,

I am in agreement with Charles. You are new here. We have, as I stated before on another similar thread, discussed this matter actively and to death on this forum.

There has most definitely been active involvement and guidance from both the moderators and the Administrator, who is often very busy and cannot monitor or read everything here. He has often spoken out on such threads in his charitable yet orthodox manner. He always inspires me with the integrity of his posts which are, unfortunately, not many lately.

This is summer, and it is obvious to those of us who have been here for a few years, that summer threads are lighter in feel and involvement.

You must also realize that some take vacations and some take time to smell the flowers.

Please don't read assumptions into everything.

Most of us agree that there is a problem with overt sexuality of all kinds in our culture.

Most of us agree with the Pope and the Church.

Some here may have struggles. The mere fact that they are here tells us that. (Many men in the homosexual 'lifestyle' are not exactly actively religious in traditional churches).

Perhaps they are trying to work their struggles out and understand them? That must be a very difficult thing in today's world. We must be pastoral.

A young married priest I know who is very devout, intensely religious, and Orthodox (with both a small 'o' and a large 'o') was trying to counsel a young man from his community who was influenced by and embracing homosexuality though there was nothing about him that would have ever made anyone think that, and he most definitely did look at young women before that.

The priest's approach was simple: it is a sin according to the Holy Church and it must be fought like any other temptation. He went on to say to the young man, "do you think that just because I am married that it is easy for me not to look at an attractive woman? But, I fight it and I don't, because it is a sin. In the same way, you too, should turn away from your temptation".

His homosexual friends, however, told him differently.

As pastoral, yet firm as the young priest was, the young High School man, who once thought of becoming a priest because he loved the Church so much, and had just lost his mother to cancer, turned away from the Church and hasn't been seen since. He is now brilliant student in one of our nation's top universities, and he now advertises his new affiliation.

These are difficult times.

These are not easy situations for anyone.

We all have struggles with our own personal sins and need to work on our personal holiness and salvation...

I also think when given the chance that we must oppose agendas of ALL sinful types, both heterosexual and homosexual, but the more that is done, whether it is increasing occultic themes, or sexual and violent lyrics and influence in music, or the movies, or television, the more the evil one gains ground.

Let's face it, we are losing the culture war on every front. We need another strategy. There are no easy answers. The only one I can think of, is that we need a revival of fasting and praying. Only then can we all get God's enlightenment.

May our Lord have mercy on us all.

With this, I hope that you will reconsider some of the not so subtle assumptions you have made about posters here that you really have not had time to get to know.

I do hope that you will stick around on other threads, and try to get to know the unique individuals that grace this forum.

It is considered to be one of the most charitable forums around, and as a Byzantine Catholic, you should be very proud of that!

I truly understand your frustrations, but rather than just focus on sins and perceived shortcomings of the posters, moderators and administrator here, let us also remember the words of Archbishop Fulton J.Sheen, of blessed memory:

"To be polite is to be charitable, to be charitable is to be loving, and to love is to be like God".

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. I sincerely ask your forgiveness if I have offended you in anyway with my post.

Dear DocBrian,

As it has been stated by Alice and others, this issue is not one for this Forum. The issue is being repeatedly addressed in the Town Hall Forum on at least 7 other threads. The purpose of this forum is discuss ways of spreading the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to all the nations.

I believe also very strongly with the teachings of the church concerning this matter, but do not make it a primary agenda point in how I teach the gospel. I believe also, that His Holiness did not intend for this to be the primary issue of his pontificate, but rather one of many issues that needs to be clarified in church teachings or to be be addressed among the faithful.
I am going to close this thread, and make a couple of suggestions. First issues like this need to be posted in the appropiate forum. Next, though we may be zealous in faith and teachings of the church, the matter in which we post has to carefully monitored. We need to post in Christian love and charity, because if we do then even if those rresponding may not agree with us, they will not escalate the wording to a point of anger or discourtesy. Please also remember that this is not a one issue board.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Hello everyone,

I have been asked via PM to reopen this topic. I do so under the following conditions:

1.) That we refrain from getting into name calling, accusations, etc.
2.) I wish that the sexuality issues be refrained from, a number of threads have had to be closed in the past few days, because it has an emotionally charged and issue that has been addressed over and over.
3.) I am moving this thread to Forum 4, so that it can be monitored by several moderators to ensure that things do not get out of hand.

With that said, please let us stay within the parameters of the original post.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father,

The initial article raised three issues, two that touched on the West and one that touches on the developing world:

The West:

1. Divorced persons cannot receive communion.

2. Western Cultures tired of their own culture.

The East:

Some priests who seem not to have the vocation but seem to be only social climbers.

Don't both of the Western issues touch upon sexual issues? How are we to discuss the article without touching on sexual issues?

I don't plan to comment on anything on the forum outside of evangelization but the limitations placed upon this discussion seem to effectively close it.

Dan L

Thanks Father Anthony,

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic. The dying Church in the West.

So we must ask why the pope laments a dying West? Could it be that the people of the west have embraced a secular life where the Church is considered either a) the thing you do on Sunday for an hour, or b) simply not relevant to one's life at all i.e a complete disconnect of the Church to one's life.

Bound up in this is the lack luster formation of our Children who in most instances are taught about "Buddy" Jesus as a rejection of the question and answer teaching from the 50's and early 60's which pretty much seemed to teach that our faith is boiled down to the right answers and if you know them your in. Both the Buddy Jesus and the Question and Answer method of teaching don't really do the job because both of them fail at igniting the learner to love Christ.

And if the CCD or ECF classes are not reinforced at home this introduces even more disconnect into the mix.

Also throw into the mix leaders of our Church who seem to think if they challenge the laity that we will leave and take our checkbooks with us, so teachings on the hard sayings of Christ don't get heard and we are now told that we simply must love each other and try harder.

Look, I will be the first to admit that there are exceptions to each of these things that I have said. And my prayers go out to those who are struggling against the inertia.

Perhaps it is prophetic that the Church is now becoming a target, that in Canada talk of Government control of the Churches is now being extolled on the radio. That means that we are a couple of decades away from real persecution. Just look at the hostility to Religion in the US, if that religion holds fast to Christian ideas, then it is in the cross hairs. If they have embraced the world they aren't targets and proclaimed tolerant, but those tolerant religions the ones that have embraced the world, are the ones who are losing members at the fastest rate.

So... Lets have an honest discussion...

John

Sorry Dan , but I can't let you away with this one
as quoted on page 1

Benedict also responded to a question about giving the Eucharist to divorcees who remarry without getting a church annulment. The church says divorcees who remarry civally cannot receive Communion, arguing they are in a state that "contrasts with God's law."

The pope reaffirmed the teaching, although he acknowledged the suffering it has caused and said further study is needed. He mentioned in particular the case of when someone gets married in a church without being a true believer, is divorced, remarries and discovers his or her faith, but isn't allowed to receive Communion.


This refers to divorced people who remarry and not to those who are divorced and do not re-marry

True enough but that was not my point.

Dan L