www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Two views of Byzantine Catholics

Discussions of who is legit and who isn't speaks more to a pharasaic world view than to a global one, catholic or orthodox. IMHO. Byzantines have always been orthodox, but chose an alliance with Rome, and ever since, folks further east have been trying to figure ways to undo it. If Orthodox outside communion with Rome say Byzantines are not orthodox, why do they also single the Byzantines out as a group that Rome needs to abolish? (So have said some who have talks with Pope John Paul II, as I recall.) Seems to me that if Byzantines are not viewed as orthodox, they shouldn't pose any special threat to the orthodox. Maybe it has to do more with the fact that Byzantines have stayed with Rome despite orthodox objections, and so outside their control. Central Europe has always had an area where catholics and orthodox competed for control, all the way back to Ss. Cyril and Methodius. Now is no different. After the fall of communism, thousands of orthodox withdrew from the Moscow patriarchate's control. Some set up a seperate national group, others reverted back to Rome. The traditions of the Byzantines, etc. are not going to go away, and the argument over who is orthodox is a red herring, designed to justify pharasaic thinking, IMHO. No personal offense intended.

This sort of supports my point.

Instead of addressing my point of discussion first, anastasios resorts to an ad hominem attack to start off with. If your just expressing ideas here, what's wrong with me doing the same as I did?

As for my frequent use of the face icons, not that I feel you deserve an explanation, most people seem not to use them at all. I choose
to use them to express the over all feeling of my posts.

You are wrong here, and this is acknowledged by both Rome, shown in their reply to the Melkite Patriarch in regards to the Zoghby Initiative, and some of the Orthodox, namely the Antiochian Orthodox Church in reply to the same thing.

From Rome;

This is exactly what I am saying when I say that we are not Orthodox, we do not hold to the definition of Orthodoxy of today. We hold to what Orthodoxy used to be.

The fullness of the Orthodox faith is found in union with the Holy Father.

Here is what the Orthodox said in reply to the Melkites;

and in instruction to the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America;

Please point out where I said we should ignore the Orthodox.

What we need to ignore is the cries when we do things that are see as "too catholic".

Such as when some of our bishops chose to go to the Holy Father for ordination.

And your point about what church I attend is for what?

As you see above, what the Melkites think is not necessarily correct as it is rejected by both Rome and the Orthodox.

No we are not some third way, but we are neither of the other two. We are a blending of them. We are both ways.

No, you and your kind use the Orthodox, or what your perceive the Orthodox to be today, as a yardstick (more Orthodox than the Orthodox).

Rome has said for us to return to our Traditions, not be become Orthodox. As we are not and can not because, as you state, we are in communion with Rome.

David

This is why I am wary of the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome." If one uses the word "Orthodox" to refer to the Christian East, that is fine, but it's a wholly different thing to say that one is "orthodox (little 'o') in communion with Rome." To me, the latter phrase is unnecessarily redundant, and I'm sure less learned people would be apt to confuse the former term with the latter.

It is my personal opinion that the Eastern Catholic Churches should strive their hardest to return to the pre-Schism Orthodox Tradition, heck, have a field day!, but I think to return to the post-Schism Orthodox Tradition is something different entirely.

No we are not some third way, but we are neither of the other two. We are a blending of them. We are both ways.

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David[/QB][/QUOTE]

Oh the "thumbs down" are flying today

Are you saying that the Eastern Catholic Churches are some sort of "hybrid" of the East and West? If so, that model has been rejected by the Roman Catholic Church since Vatican II, by Eastern Catholic Churches themselves, and by the Orthodox.

A blessed Lord's Day to all!

Dear Fr. Mark,

Bless!

I have compared the modern Ruthenian text of 'fos hilaron' to the text in the Erie prayerbook and it does not match on several counts. It also does not seem to match the current Nikonian Slavonic. I tend to think that if this is to be discussed another thread will need to be started. If it appears no one is interested, well it will die here.

Tony

(BLOWING A LOUD WHISTLE!) HOLD IT GUYS HERE!!!

First of all...I want to remind you all posters here...Both Catholic & Orthodox (YEAH YOU TOO Fr. Mark)....

Before the schism...the Christian East were called Orthodox and the Christian West were called Catholics.

BOTH WERE IN FULL COMMUNION WITH EACH OTHER THROUGH AND WITH THE POPE OF ROME!!!

The Byzantine Catholics are the Christian East just as the Orthodox is...so BCC have the FULL RIGHT TO CALL HERSELF ORTHODOX!!!

In matter of fact, I was told by few former Orthodox priests and lay people that there is NOTHING MORE ORTHODOX THAN BEING IN COMMUNION WITH ROME!!! How about that!!!

I am fully disgusted with the Orthodox Church's attempt to draw the lines of who are called "Orthodox" and who is not. That is just a disgusting POLITICAL attempt to manifest PRIDE!

Just who do you Orthodox think you are???

Tell me....just tell me....if BCC hold all Orthodox theology, faith, patristic, Liturgy, and even laws....then what are we??? HUH? You wanna be smart with me? Just tell me who you think we are if we are all what Orthodox are, with an exception that we are in communion with Rome just as the Orthodox were before schism!?? HUH?

I am fully disgusted with the fact that when Pope John Paul II went to visit Greece to visit Greek Catholics and with the Orthodox Church. He has publically apologized for any hurts, harms and for everything to the Orthodox. That wasn't his first apology. He has apologized over and over and over. He has bended his ass backwards over and over and over for ungrateful disgruntled Orthodox Christians who are having a big baby fit over labels of who are "Orthodox" and who aren't! Give me a break! I even saw CNN reports, ABC News reports, all the national and international news coverage (may I remind you, most are anti-Catholic) have shown footage of Orthodox MONKS carrying a sign protesting against the Pope's visit to Greece and I vividly remember the words on one of many signs "Pope of Rome--Go Home!" How Christian is that?? All I see is hatred spewing from Orthodox Christians when the pope is there to apologize and asking for forgiveness??? Oh that disgusts me so! Ever since then, my views on Orthodox Church have changed. I've come to conclusion: That the Orthodox Church is pretty un-Christian and is a church filled with hatred, living in the past and PRIDE. These are all the vices that a Church should not carry!

Who is more Christian? The Pope? Or the Monks? I'd say the Pope is!

Certainly, the Orthodox have NOT forgiven us nor have they even asked for one!

The Catholic Church even gave back Church properties to the Orthodox, Holy Icons, and many stuff. And yet extremely few Orthodox have ever given us Catholics back what's rightfully OURS. Especially in the former USSR countries like Ukraine.

Unless you, Fr. Mark, have proven me wrong or otherwise, I'd suggest you have a long examination of what the Orthodox Church have been doing in the last 100 years, not to mention over the last 1,000 years since the schism. You need to think long and hard about everything here and there.

I MUST warn you! After the Catholic Church's (both Eastern & Western) many many apologies, asking for forgivenesses and "making it up with them"...and the Orthodox still refuse or would not budge. We will wash our hands and say, "There's nothing we can do. We've tried. So we leave it up to G-d who will not be merciful in His judgements." It's true, right now He may be all Merciful. But when He becomes the Judge at the Last Day, He most certainly will NOT be! BEWARE!

I think I've said enough. There is NOTHING more we can do to get the Orthodox to forgive us, and ask us to forgive them.

But I'll tell you this, you have NO right to tell us that we can't use the term "Orthodox" to identify ourselves simply because we're in communion with Rome? COME ON! If the Orthodox were in communion with Rome BEFORE the schism, then they are Orthodox. If you are not in communion with Rome, then you are NOT Orthodox! PERIOD!

I have NO hatred or bad blood against the Orthodox. But certainly I have the FULL right to be angry and upset with the Orthodox is making POLITICAL and OUTRAGEOUS attempts to slay us for using the term "Orthodox."

Maybe you need to drop the word "Catholic" out of the Creed! And that you may NOT use the term "Catholic" if you're going to be this way to us.

We have a full right to call ourselves Orthodox! I'm not going to be polically correct or being overly worried about offending the Orthodox. Certainly nothing have stopped them from offending us or trying to be politically correct with us. SO, what's fair is fair.

So, just stop being so silly and political about the term "Orthodox."

May I ask you once again, if we hold all Orthodox faith, traditions, laws, liturgy, etc. then what are we?? Yeah. Think about it. Yeah, it doesn't take more than a MONKEY to figure that out!

SPDundas
Proudly DEAF Orthodox Chritian in Communion with Rome.

OH BTW, I'll resound the words of Pope John Paul II: "WE MUST BE ORTHODOX IN FAITH, BUT CATHOLIC IN LOVE."

And also there have been some Orthodox Christians leaving the Orthodox Church to become BCC because they were SIMPLY DISGUSTED with the way the Orthodox have treated the Catholic Church (both east & west). SERIOUSLY! I'm not making that up! So, you must have done good job setting good examples to Orthodox Christians of holiness, Christian LOVE, piety. Keep it up...then all the Orthodox Christians will soon join BCC and the Orthodox Church will be NO MORE, what's left will be the TRUE ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS IN COMMUNION WITH ROME!!!

So I will ask the question again, should people who have made bequests to the Orthodox Church in their wills expect to have your lawyers involved in the allocation of their earthy goods after their death?

Axios

The Byzantine Catholics are the Christian East just as the Orthodox is...so BCC have the FULL RIGHT TO CALL HERSELF ORTHODOX!!!

Except those protestantized converts, the Orthodox Churches have always accepted that the Pope of Rome had a very important role in the early Church, presiding in love and protecting the Orthodoxy of the Church.

In matter of fact, I was told by few former Orthodox priests and lay people that there is NOTHING MORE ORTHODOX THAN BEING IN COMMUNION WITH ROME!!! How about that!!!

That is true because of the reasons I posted before, but the problem is that now, being in communion with Rome also implies the recognition and acceptance of doctrines and innovations that the Orthodox see as erroneous, and notice that nothing has been said about the innovations of 30 years ago. The Roman Church nowadays is quite different from the Roman Church of 1053, or of 1600, or 1950.

I am fully disgusted with the Orthodox Church's attempt to draw the lines of who are called "Orthodox" and who is not. That is just a disgusting POLITICAL attempt to manifest PRIDE!

Well, I know it is quite unchristian to draw lines of who is more Orthodox and hollier and have a pharisaic attitude, this kind of possitions exist among both Orthodox and Catholics. But it is the duty of the Orthodox Bishops and the Churches to guide the faithful and draw lines of who is part of the Orthodox Church (or "World Orthodoxy") and who is not. And I am sure that most of the problems that the Roman Church is having now, are due to the lack of decission of Bishops in telling what is Catholic and what is not. I believe that orthodox Bishops are doing good when they define where the Orthodox Church exists and where no.

Tell me....just tell me....if BCC hold all Orthodox theology, faith, patristic, Liturgy, and even laws....then what are we??? HUH? You wanna be smart with me? Just tell me who you think we are if we are all what Orthodox are, with an exception that we are in communion with Rome just as the Orthodox were before schism!?? HUH?

No again no, the problem is that I find imposible to be Orthodox and Catholic (sharing tha catholic faith of the 2003) at the same time. There are things that separate both Churches, what people don't get is that Catholicism is not esentialy the same, it has changed a lot and it does not have the same faith it had before the schism. Union with Rome nowadays not only implies a union with Pope John Paul II, but a union with all those who are in communion with him and who have ideas that are quite opposed to Orthodoxy (and to the teachings of this Pope too).

I am fully disgusted with the fact that when Pope John Paul II went to visit Greece to visit Greek Catholics and with the Orthodox Church. He has publically apologized for any hurts, harms and for everything to the Orthodox. That wasn't his first apology. He has apologized over and over and over. He has bended his ass backwards over and over and over for ungrateful disgruntled Orthodox Christians who are having a big baby fit over labels of who are "Orthodox" and who aren't! Give me a break! I even saw CNN reports, ABC News reports, all the national and international news coverage (may I remind you, most are anti-Catholic) have shown footage of Orthodox MONKS carrying a sign protesting against the Pope's visit to Greece and I vividly remember the words on one of many signs "Pope of Rome--Go Home!" How Christian is that?? All I see is hatred spewing from Orthodox Christians when the pope is there to apologize and asking for forgiveness??? Oh that disgusts me so! Ever since then, my views on Orthodox Church have changed. I've come to conclusion: That the Orthodox Church is pretty un-Christian and is a church filled with hatred, living in the past and PRIDE. These are all the vices that a Church should not carry!

Who is more Christian? The Pope? Or the Monks? I'd say the Pope is!

Again, those reports seriously mixed things up and were meant to be sensationalist. Most of the monks you saw Protesting in the streets are NOT in communion with the Church of Greece which extended the invitation to Pope John Paul II. Most of them are followers of schismatic communities that are excommunicated and in direct opposition to the EP and the Greek Church, such as the "genuine church", the "true orthodox christians...". And Archbishop Christodoulos suspended and defrocked many priests who, being members of the Church of Greece, supported the protest marches. Those protest marches were an amalgam of schismatic monks, communist organizations, political parties, and many otjher heterogenous groups.

Certainly, the Orthodox have NOT forgiven us nor have they even asked for one!

It is true that there are many groups that are very uncharitable, and I would also think it would be good if the Orthodox ask forgiveness for its coperation with Communism, the martyrdom of Catholic priests, and their alliance with the Soviet regimes, and secular states, as John Paul II has done.

The Catholic Church even gave back Church properties to the Orthodox, Holy Icons, and many stuff. And yet extremely few Orthodox have ever given us Catholics back what's rightfully OURS. Especially in the former USSR countries like Ukraine.

Well, in many cases, Rome is responsable of the not giving back of properties to Greek Catholics by Orthodox. In Ukraine many Greek Catholics took the temples by force, and I agree with you, they had the right to do so and they chose the best option. It was clear that you could not trust that Rome would defend the Greek Catholics since if they had let the negociations in the hands of the Romans the UGCC would have been left with nothing and the Orthodox would have kept all their properties.

In Transylvania, for example, when communism fell, there was a movement of priests of the Bucharest Patriarchate who wanted to fully restore Greek Catholicism which was predominant before communism. There, Greek Catholics waited for Rome to have talks with the Orthodox before trying anything else, and guess what... Rome decided not to fight for the properties because it was harmful to the ecumenical contacts. Some years later, in order to organize the Pope's visit, Rome decided not to touch the issue of the properties and accepted the "legitimacy" of the manipulated statistics in which Greek Catholic presence was minimized.
During the trip, Patriarch Teoctist, the approval of the Pope cleaned from his coperation with communism and gave him the legitimacy hhe didn't have even in his own faithful, who rejected him because of being silent before the persecutions against Orthodox and Greek catholic priests and laity who oposed communism. The Greek catholic Church also lost prestige and many Orthodox got dissapointed when they saw the Pope's attitude, so, they saw no need to join the Greek catholic Church.

So how does one know if a Orthodox church is in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church. And how does one know if it is the correct Greek Orthodox Church?

Well, after such a rather uncharitable rant, one does not quite know where to begin I just hope SP that you know some Orthodox Christians beyond this forum or other fora to give you a more balanced view of the Orthodox Church . And talk about swollen pride.......... Sheesh!

Again, there is the denomination known as the Orthodox Church and the denomination known as the Catholic Church. This does not necessarily say that you cannot be "orthodox" in Faith.

(We could use a little humor here)

Hey, Brian! The Catholic and Orthodox Churches aren't denominations! Stop stealing us Protestants' claim to fame!

ChristTeen287

Dear spdundas,

The key word in the above quote is "if." The reality is, whether or not some individuals accept it, that all Churches in communion with Rome share the same faith with Her. That faith is not the same as the faith of the Orthodox Church. PERIOD!

Do you think the Byzantine Catholic bishops in this country call themselves Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome?

The use of the words Catholic/catholic and Orthodox/orthodox is old. As someone pointed out in the Tridentine Roman Canon the term "orthodox Christians" was used to refer to, of course, Roman Catholics. No one had a hissie fit about that. Many non-Catholic/Orthodox Churches use the Nicene Creed and they say they believe in "one, holy, catholic...." and no one is having a hissie fit about that either.

The removal of the term "orthodox" from Byzantine Catholic texts is rather late as I imagine you know.

I wish you a peaceful rest.

Tony

Teen,

Thank you , Bro , for making me smile in a rather tense thread It was very much needed!!!
Your preachy almost Orthodox brother in Christ,

Brian

"Axios" wrote:

Certainly not. As far as I know there is not one Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction in this country which has any plans for a name change. No one is even suggesting that.

That's a different issue than whether it's okay for Orthodox to use the term "Catholic" to describe themselves (which all of us Byzantine Catholics have no problem with) and whether it's okay for us to use the term "Orthodox."

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com