www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine in an All ROMAN CATHOLIC TOWN

It's on the website of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, I believe. (At least, it was.)

As for deportment, I think that St. Ambrose's advice to St. Augustine still obtains: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." (However, I would still make the sign of the cross "our way", but without the full metany; lots of our people just do the cross with a very slight bow from the hips.) And as for crossing before the altar, a simple bow is pretty common among not only Byzantines, but also RCs and Anglicans. Genuflecting is not de-rigeur. Of course, one should avoid the prideful sin of "look-at-me-ism", sweeping in like an in-law of the Romanovs or like Rasputin after a losing battle with a van-de-Graff generator.

If the folks in this parish seem to have problems with even the tiniest external behavior (like the sign of the cross), then take advantage of the Conciliar indult and fulfil your obligation at the Greek Orthodox Church. The Pope'll understand. He's Polish and knows of bias.

Christ is Risen!

The document "Eastern Catholics in the United States of America" can be found at:

http://www.cin.org/east/eastcathamer.html

I agree with Karen that the directive is probably directed at non-conformists and not to Byzantines. I've never run into the problems that Walosi is describing. What you describe is quite distressing.

I would just ignore any comments about how you do the sign of the cross and the metany. It's just ignorance on their part. After awhile, I'm sure they'll get over it.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

My experience is similar to Dave's, generally the reception is friendly from RC's. Most of the problems I have encountered have been from "trad" RCs trying to tell us how to do our liturgy or from a few RC priests who seem to be turf conscious of contributing Greek Catholic parishoners leaving their parishes.

I did mediate in one occurrance of a priest refusing to give a Greek Catholic child who was attending an RC school Communion because he said it would be "confusing" to the other children. After threatining to go to his Bishop who is actually very friendly to the Greek Catholics and who is usually at odds with this particular pastor he relented. If it was me, I would look at that situation as a "catechetical moment" and take advantage of that to explain to the kids that there are different Catholic traditions.

Christ is Risen!

I think part of the problem with Latins and the sign of the cross is that the western way, from left to right is so unnatural to many people!

I remember most small children (myself when small and my own children included) had a propensity to cross themselves from right to left and it takes extra effort to learn the Latin way. Some may dispute this but I'm not kidding! Roman Catholics are used to teaching newbies on how to cross themselves, although I wouldn't expect anyone to have the nerve to do that to someone they don't know.

If you defend yourself by explaining that you are Byzantine you probably embarassed them by exposing their ignorance and flipped them over from being the corrector to being the corrected. 98% of Latins in this country (USA) haven't a clue about the Byzantines, if they did many of them would be bolting for the nearest Byzantine church!

I have been attending Byzantine worship for only a few months and I when there and at home I always cross myself from right to left. But when I visit the local Roman parish, which I like to do occasionally (I really like it) I try to cross myself from left to right but I often forget now, it feels so unnatural to me. Let me tell you, it's OK in the pews but when I take communion it's like I'm on stage and everybody notices! You could tell by the shocked stares.

I agree with Steve that the guidelines were probably not directed to you. The reason I say this is that the Vatican has come out with some new directives to make the Latin mass a bit more reverential and uniform and apparently there is some confusion in the ranks. That letter may be addressing those issues. But I wouldn't blame you for feeling like a casualty over all of this.

First, I think that visitors should make some effort conform to the prevailing customs of a parish community. That said I agree with Ed Klages practical advice about how you may continue in your traditional practices (crossing, Metany, etc.) without probably creating a scene. It helps to be in the back too! I would get to know ALL of the priests at the parish on a first named basis (ignore the secretary!) and wear a necklace or broach with a three bar cross proudly every time you attend mass.

Also, as has already been suggested, write your Eparch about your concerns, and copy the local ordinary and the Papal Nuncio for good measure if you feel that it may help.

God Bless you and yours

Michael, sinner

Dear Walosi:

Given the ignorance you have experienced, I would go to the Orthodox misson and not worry about it. After all, don't we Easterns see "Peter" not as the occupant of the office of the Pope of Rome, but ANY bishop with valid apostolic succession.

Yours,

kl

Dear Dan,
Christ is risen!
In order to solve the lack of vocation in the Byzantine priesthood the Byzantine Catholic Church MUST, AND I SAY MUST, become a MISSIONARY CHURCH and set aside the nationalism that it has(if ever there was). Only by establishing missionary centers that the Byzantine Catholic Church will be able to solve its problem in vocation. There are fertile grounds for vocations outside of the United States. There are many countries in Asia and Africa that needs missionary centers.

Just consider...

ruel

Christ is Risen!

Definitely true indeed, the throne of Peter is found in every local church BUT there is a locus Petri and it is found only in Rome.

ruel

Dear Michael,
I agree with you, 100% + 1! A sledge hammer is need to stop these people creating confusion.

ruel

Walosi,

quote
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I'm feeling slapped in the face. The bishop here has permitted the following to be published in all the local parish bulletins,
"By its nature the Eucharist and all liturgical prayer is celebrated in *unity * of posture, gestures, prayers, responses, rubrics, and actions to express our *common* worship of our Savior." The stuff with asterisks on either side were in boldface on the document.
*************************************************

I don't think the bishop was speaking to Eastern Catholics in his statement. He was speaking to all the silliness that is carried on by RC's during Mass.

quote:
************************************************
The "Haughty" response to my questions was from a Roman Catholic secretary in the parish offices. She did not want me to bother the priest with questions about how to keep my traditions alive while participating in this parish. She told me that there were not enough Byzantine Catholics in this town for anyone to care about the traditions and that I should just give it up and conform to Roman Catholic traditions.

************************************************

This secretary is ignorant and/or something worse. Ignore her comments and go direcly to the parish priest.

If thing don't improve for you, Is there another RC parish that you could attend?

I am sorry for this bad experience that you are having at a RC parish. You should feel welcome.

When I attend a Byzantine parish Divine Liturgy, there are no liturgy police cracking down on my liturgical mistakes and Latinisms.

Sincerely yours,

Paul

Eastern Catholics in the USA [cin.org]

Dear Friend,

My own advice to you is to attend the Greek Orthodox Church.

That is your tradition and the RC's have no rite to tell you how to cross yourself in their church, just as we don't tell them what to do in our churches.

But if they want to make a point of it, attend the Orthodox Church.

The Pope is certainly not "Peter" but the successor of Peter. And so are all the other bishops, the Patriarch of Antioch and the Pope of Alexandria (founded by Peter's assistant, St Mark the Evangelist).

The Church of Christ is one, Catholic and Orthodox, although administratively, there is separation at the top.

The Orthodox Church, from the Catholic perspective, is the true Church of Christ, even though full unity is not yet achieved.

To be a member of the Orthodox Church is to be in communion with Peter and the Apostles through the Orthodox Patriarchs, Metropolitans and Bishops throughout the world.

Peter consecrated many bishops in the East, but only one in Rome.

In any event, this is up to you. I would go with Dr. John's advice.

Dr. John is a former Jesuit scholastic. If anyone is pro-papal, he is .

Alex

I agree, and even know that the statment about uniformity was not aimed at you. The statment was a reaction to the chaos in some RC churches, and a general lack of reverence. I say this because, I am a RC, who now attends a BC church, because of the lack of reverence( in the RC church i used to attend). This is a problem in some RC churchs, but there are also warm, welcoming, and very reverent parishes too.

I find myself at home and at peace in the eastern rite. speaking of vocations, I am currently in diserment, and realy praying about and thinking about if i would better serve the church a bi-rite RC priest, or If i should change rites and follow my calling this way. Could you please keep me in your prayers.

I agree with the comments about the sign of the cross, I know when i attend RC parishes now I make the sign in the eastern way. I would not change, I find it hard to make it left to right and i was raised RC and only have been attending the BC for about one and a half years.

Thank you for putting up with my poor spelling

Just a note to Karen - holding hands during the Our Father is actually an abuse - if you check EWTN's FAQ page, there's an entry for it.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/ewtn/experts/conference.htm

You are certainly under no compulsion to engage in a practice that is even inappropriate to RC's when in an RC church.

Best,

Sharon

Dear Sharon,

Well, holding up one's arms for the Our Father is wrong - as it is usurping the priestly movement.

But holding up one's hands without hauling them up over one's head is perfectly in keeping with ancient Eastern tradition.

Monks of old prayed this way and Archbishop Raya makes mention of this as a proper way to pray before an icon.

Alex

Alex,

No argument.

The practice in question though is the you-grab my-hand-and-I-grab-the-next-person's-hand and everybody holds onto each other until the end of the Lord's Prayer - and in some places they all get raised at "For the Kingdom, the power and the glory..."


Cheers,

Sharon