www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine in an All ROMAN CATHOLIC TOWN

Dear Sharon,

That's O.K. if the Our Father is preceded with a rendition of "Kum ba ya, my Lord . . ."

Alex

Yes, I never saw the sense to the practice of holding hands and I see it "petering" out in most places. I always supposed it was a halfway move to get people to raise their arms in prayer. Which is what I do now.

I would be glad to know if holding a strangers' hands is an abuse because I certainly would not want to do anything improper and I never liked it anyway. Around Chicago it seems to have mostly died away. I cannot see how holding a loved one's hands at anytime could be a problem!

Actually, praying with arms raised at any time wouldn't bother me if it was accepted and proper. I would pray with palms out, or up. Whatever is acceptable as the earliest Christians seem to have done. But if the practice is not acceptable during the Paternoster I am not sure why.

Alex,
Are you saying that holding one's arm up over the head is usurping the gestures of the priest? In other words, if one holds ones hands at shoulder height it would be correct for a layperson? Just curious.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Privately, there is nothing wrong with that.

But in Church, the best thing would be to just hold out one's hands, palms upward and without going to high up with them.

I learned quickly in the OCA parish I attended yesterday that any change from what others are doing are NOT appreciated and are questioned .

Alex

Oh Alex,

What did you do now?????

Dear Brian,

Well, I learned that Old Believer practices are best left to the Old Believer parishes!

Alex

Walosi,

Where exactly in Texas are you?

- Henri

I attend two RC parishes, one for daily mass and one for Sunday. The beloved priests seem to be afraid of me. I don't want to tell where I am because I do not wish to cause them any problems. They are good and godly men.

I plan to bring the encyclicals Orientale Lumen, Orientale Dignitas, and the letter of the Bishops in America to the attention to the servants of Christ.

I am stressing about this and many other issues at the moment -- I got looks before the announcement was made, but post announcement, things have intensified. At both parishes. I suppose I could go to the Spanish language parish, but I don't know where it is and don't understand Spanish. The parish associated with the students at the nearby university has a great priest, but I am uncomfortable going there because I'm always sent to a woman I am not convinced has the gift of spiritual guidance for spiritual instruction.

I am very discouraged and truly appreciate everyone's words of encouragement and assistance. My plan is to read the encyclicals, bring copies for my priests, discuss them with them, and in the meantime visit the Byzantine parish which is a hundred miles or more away monthly. I will begin writing little articles for our parish newsletters on Eastern Catholic practices and traditions -- as there are more folks than just myself.

You all have truly proven to a beleaguered sister that Christ has Risen INDEED!

Thank you all.
Walosi

Ruel,

Could you clarify just a bit?

"In order to solve the lack of vocation in the Byzantine priesthood the Byzantine Catholic Church MUST, AND I SAY MUST, become a MISSIONARY CHURCH and set aside the nationalism that it has(if ever there was). Only by establishing missionary centers that the Byzantine Catholic Church will be able to solve its problem in vocation. There are fertile grounds for vocations outside of the United States. There are many countries in Asia and Africa that needs missionary centers."

Are you saying that we should spread our wings to countries outside the USA? Are you saying we should become reattached to our European roots? I agree with both of these ideas, but wonder what exactly you meant. I think there are many vocations dying on the vine in our present parishes and I believe there are many places here that need priests but under our present apathy will never see one.

To all:

Can Deacons provide vespers and the like when priests are not available so that missions stations might be developed?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Walosi,
Please do not be too stressed out by your ordeal, we all wish you well as I am sure you know!

You are patient and knowledgeable and very sincere about your faith. I'll bet that the good fathers will be delighted to speak with you, it will be so refreshing!

Good luck and God Bless you!

Michael, sinner

Should the Byzantine Catholic Church in America spread its wings outside the USA?
Yes. The Eastern Church has very much to offer to the world and it is sad that it is not flourishing in other countries such as Korea, Papua New Guinea, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, China, South Africa, etc. These are mission area and if the hierarchs decide to establish a missionary center in one of these countries and a vocation promotion activity in the missions. I think there will be no problem. John Paul II has put its hope in Asia and Africa for vocations (and his hope is being realized because there are surging of vocations in these part of the globe)and I believe the Byzantine Church hierarchs should consider the idea.

Should the Byzantine Church become reattached to its European roots?
Not too much. The Byzantine Church should not be entrapped in etnicity and don't stress it too much. It should welcome people in all etnic background.

ruel

Alex,

I have some comments but please don't think that I am picking on you.


Is this truly his tradition? I as a Byzantine Catholic attending a Melkite Greek Catholic Church have noticed many differences. The spreading of laural lives on the church floor on Holy Saturday Morning, just to name one.

There are some differences between byzantine churches from different areas, middle eastern/slavic for example.

Again, this is a difference. The Melkites do hold up their arms, as the priest, during the Our Father and it is a posture that is called for within their copy of the litury.

Here is the link to the Divine Liturgy at the Melkite web site.

http://www.melkite.org/Dliturgy.htm

Here is the relevant section from that web page;

The Our Father

(The people extend their hands to God)

PEOPLE: Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

PRIEST: For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and always and for ever and ever.

PEOPLE: Amen

As you can see, there are differences between things among byzantine churches.


In Christ,
David

Dear DavidB,

Well, since you were right on the Ukrainian Catholic patriarchate thing, there's no telling what else you are right on as well.

I think it is perhaps a question of how far out we extend our arms.

If you did that in my parish, it would cause some comment . . .

Although we have an Indian parishioner who crosses pussy-willow branches together and raises them up for prayer . . .

Alex

If a 'New' Believer visits my chapel, I simply recognise that to force them to follow the Ancient Piety under my roof, knowing that they will do different things once they leave, is artificial. I welcome them and do not force them out when it's service time. There are clear taboos that would not be permitted, but they are welcomed in Christ's name.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

I hope that I would fit right in, Father!

Alex

I'm sure you would. In fact, you'd be given some wood working tools and set to work as an honorary trudnik!