www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What Do You Believe?

Dear Ladyhawke,

Actually, I discussed this with my students on Saturday.

A great thing about teaching religion is that it forces one to become clearer in one's thinking etc.

I guess I can use a lot of that . . .

God bless,

Alex

Dear Friends,

Yes, it is true that infallibly proclaimed dogma cannot be reversed.

But it can, subsequently, be given new interpretations that can, in and of themselves, greatly change its character.

It's that "development of doctrine" thingy . . .

Aren't we all having great fun here today?

I can just picture the Administrator smiling from ear to ear right about now!

Alex

I think that what Fr. Seraphim had to say is hugely important. The fact that he is Orthodox has no particular relevance to the wisdom of his comments.

Fr. Seraphim is looking at matters from an appealing perspective that cuts to the heart of the meaning of "church" and the means to "knowledge" of God. Latins are often accused here of a scholastic, rationalistic, legalistic approach; but I think that thoughful people, Latins and otherwise, ultimately recognize the limits of that rationalistic categorizations and efforts to "ef" the Ineffable. There are limits to what we can do with our minds and our language on these matters, whether we are describing the mystery of the Church, the mystery of Sin, the mystery of the Trinity, etc. Fr. Seraphim's advising experience seasoned with humility is enormously important. For example, an understanding of the meaning of the words in Pastor Aeternus cannot simply be accomplished by scholastic parsing of the text but must be informed by the very experience of the church in the church.

And in this spirit I will plead guilty to your charge: I certainly do not know what I am talking about. On the other hand I am somewhat adept at knowing, apophatically, what it is that is not being ( or ought not be being)talked about. And that sensibility permeates many of my comments. This may be frustrating to you, but I think that - especially being in an Orthodox milieu - you will get it ultimately.

I don't tend to take personal offense, btw. I do, however, take corporate offense. On occasions that people make an attack on my church, I do respond.

I guess we are getting into mysticism now.

I guess I'll stop reciting the Creed at Liturgy so that I can "apophatically" express my beliefs. I wouldn't want people to think that I believe in One God, the Father Almighty...in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

We are talking about the Church, the visible Church. You cannot approach dogmas of the Church apophatically. If everything about the life of the Church could be approached "apophatically", then we wouldn't have Creeds, councils, etc. Apophatic is negation, a dogma cannot be a negation, but an affirmation. Your comments don't make sense in within this topic.

Yes, your comments are very "mystical".

Then respond with an affirmation of what your Church believes. You cannot have an "apophatic" discussion. My head is starting to spin

Seriously, do you recite the Creed at your church? If so, do you recite the whole creed? Do you express parts of the creed "apophatically"?

This is starting to become comical.

Greg

Gregory,

Nothing mystical about argumentation. The idea is in fact trivial: it is relatively simple to find the weakness or outright flaw in an argument in support of some conjecture, but much more difficult to provide the correct argument let flesh out the broader truth touched on by the conjecture.

Thus, for example, it is easy to identify comments on, say, original sin, that are not compatible with Catholic teaching; it is harder to prepare an informative statement that has no such incompatibilites; and harder still to provide prepare a statement that fully elucidates the Catholic teaching.

What do I believe? I believe that if Gregory were a Latin posting in such a spirit he would be censured...

Dear Daniel,

By whom?

The Administrator has censured a few Easterners here for being discourteous, including me.

If you feel that people are attacking the "One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church" here, you should just try some of your good-natured humour on them.

After sampling some of that, I'm sure they'll either behave or leave here permanently!

God bless,

Alex

I didn't say anything about "Roman". Don't get me started, Alex,or I'll make you cry again.

Dear Daniel,

So what did you mean?

And you've never given me tears, Big Guy.

Only stomach cramps . . .

Alex

Come come people...its Lent time. Be more forgiving and don't carp incessantly! EVERYONE: Guinness is on me!

Anton

BAB, am I allowed to drink Guinness? Somehow I have never enquired...

Dear Anton,

You've picked a helluva thread to talk about good will!

Alex

Anton, no meat or dairy products. And besides, as many of the old advertisements in Ireland on the road sides read:

GUINNESS IS GOOD FOR YOU!

Dear Daniel,

Please forgive my indiscretions!

Please forgive me a sinner at this holy time of Lent!

Alex

The only thing I have to see about this thread is this:

If anyone says that Eastern Catholics have absolutely no identity crises, they are kidding themselves.

One parish is Eastern and follows the rules of the Unions, others have statues, Latin priests, say the filioque and attend "mass". Some say ECs are Eatern or Western. Some say both. I say some are Eastern, some Western, some both, and some neither.

In the Eastern Catholic churches one may find a church that teaches Augustinian original sin as absolute. In others they teach it is a falsehood. In some the pope is infallible, in others he isn't. Some call themselves Orthodox, others despise the Orthodox.

Alex,

I like you, but you know I have to respond to this.

Is your church a Ukie only club?????? I know from experience that it is not. Please don't call it CONVERT mentality! It demeans those who have suffered to become members of your church. Unless, of course, you don't want any converts, in which case they are perfectly welcome and respected at mine.

Please call it overzealousness. I've heard of that as a sin and have seen that from converts and natives. I've never heard anyone calling converting to their own religion a sin. I know what you mean, but what you say does not reflect it.

Diak,

I think your tone needs to be adjusted. You should have a lot more respect for things this important when you write.

Guinness IS good for you. It's not a trivial matter to be joked about casually. It's very important.

(Diak, I don't really mean it. I don't want Alex to think I'm singling him out for criticism.)