www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West I don't want reunion now.

I think that the concept of primus inter pares (first amongst equals)is the way the vatican should go. years ago, when I was Philosophy major (Religious Studies concentration)at UT Chattanooga, I did a paper in Modern Philosophy on a Cartesian approach to Papal Infallibility.I used Hans Kung's work on the Papacy, and he ventured the notion of primus inter pares. Kung's idea, and my own addtion of Counciliarism is the only way I see as being any chance for Rome-Constantinople reconciliation. Vatican 1 must be undone.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear Alice:

I am reading your post with thanks and with great hope that your sentiments reflect more and more, albeit slowly, the sentiment of Orthodoxy in general!

Again, you reminded us that:

On the Catholic side, this has led to a clear declaration that, although we have not achieved a "full unity" with our brothers and sisters of the (Eastern and Oriental) Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church, members of these Churches may receive communion at any time, with the usual dispensation from their own Church.

How easy it is for these Churches to reciprocate just by "acknowledging" the validity and "grace-fulness" of the Catholic Holy Eucharist as has been done by some Churches in/from the Middle East and elsewhere!

For the benefit of all Catholics and Orthodox, allow me to echo the words of Pope John Paul II: "Don't be afraid!"

Amado

Dear Amado, Christ is Risen!

But many Orthodox do NOT acknowledge the "validity and grace-fulness" of the Catholic mysteries. The Patriarch of Constantinople will not so acknowledge them because that would cause a schism with many traditionalists, including all of Mount Athos.
And, even Alice's spiritual father belongs to a monastic community that re-baptizes converts from Roman Catholicism. So, I would advise against holding your breath.

Photius

Dear John�

Yes.

Union is not to be found in a sameness � nor a sameness of theological expression.

Unity is a change of heart and attitude � and not a change in theological expression of rites and ceremonies nor ecclesiastical structure. Such externals should change with pastoral needs � but not with a sameness across churches goal of an artificial and exterior unity.

Let me repeat something I am found of saying � it is from Plato.

Does the virtuosity of the pianist reside in the quality of his instrument or in the pianist? Will he who is only an average player � play like a virtuoso if given a quality piano? Will the master play as only an average player if forced to play a lesser quality piano?


Just ask anyone who �breaths with two lungs� and they will tell you that the human differences between both East and West - actually make it easier to see the same divine spirit underneath. Those who breathe with �two lungs� eat twice the food than anyone else. And so we are passionate as regards so little difference when each is understood in light of the other.

Breathing with both lungs is an � experience - which can not be easily translated into words. Just ask alice, myself, yourself (your attraction to the East) or anyone who says they breath with both lungs. The Latin who discovers the East is far better off that he is a Latin looking Eastward � and the Eastern member who discovers the West is far better off because of his is Eastern looking West.

Now I can go through the history of the churches East and West � an point out that the West has a magnificent catophatic and mystical tradition (St. John of the Cross, St. Farncis, Padre Pio, Jean Pierre Cassuade, The Little Flower, The Practice of the Presence of God, John Paul, etc.. etc�) if the Catholic care to discover it. And may I remind you that all the Eastern Church has and is � belongs also to the Catholic � it is our history just as much as it is the history of the Eastern church.

Shall I list the number of Catholic theologians such as Von Balthasar, Francis Maloney, Merton, etc� etc.. whose works on understanding our heritage of the East � are books used within Orthodox seminaries. You will not find any Orthodox seminar which does not treat John of the Cross. None.

And that the Eastern churches certainly have a wonderful tradition of brilliant scholastic theology which reached its highest expression within the schools of higher education of the Byzantine Empire � such an expression that it has never dimmed and is still foundational to the Eastern Church even today. Latin scholastics flowered after Eastern scholastics. Latin scholastics flowered because of Eastern scholastics.

It is entirely selective blindness to say that one church is more catophatic than the other or that one church is more scholastic than the other. So let none of us fall for that excuse for division.

The assent to God is a ladder � now on a solid rung and next the need to traverse the empty space between rungs - to the next solid rung. Ladder of Divine Assent. Cloud of Unknowing. John Cassin.

And the person who had one foot in the scholastics of the East (which spoken in the images of cosmogony) and the scholastics of the West (which I remined you began with the Greek terms translated to Latin) � Mister Eckhart � who so well understood both � that he was persecuted by those who only understood one.

Enlightenment of the intellect followed by dark the dark night which is again followed by enlightenment which is followed by darkness � etc.. etc� . Just as John of the Cross and every Eastern father � describe- as the progressive nature of the way to mystical marriage.
And may I ask �Do we not come to know the benefits of the catophatic way by reading about it in scholastic treatises?

Is not Lassky an Eastern socialistic and his book an apophatic treatment regarding the two fold nature of the Eastern church? If Lassky�s book had blank pages � now THAT would be entirely catophatic.

And are not the arguments over theology - the arguments which both side present � are they not apophatic?? Words, semantics, logic?? Yup.

And so above (my arguments) which you can counter and I can re-counter � all week long as others have done for decades � are not the way to union. Sameness.

Rather than plan union � let us � discover � union.
(which I think is a quote from an Orthodox)

See how well I talk myself into this? 

Your own thoughtful essay in your reply � would be welcomed at the type of site I propose. It deals with some aspects that are in someway real and want answer � and at the same time it answers that the differences must be preserved because unity can not be found in the differences (which is where every one wants unity to be found). We do not need nor can we have unity in � sameness.

So let us try another way�

�I give you only one new commandment - Love one another��

which in this case means listen to and understand each other. And let the rest fall where it may.

That is all we should try to do. Our sights should be no higher. Yet � we can be sure that if we do that � higher things are inevitable to take place.

We have no authority nor even capability (we only play with theology at this board) to do anything greater. And thank you God � we have therefore no responsibility to answer for as bishops do!

So it all seems to make senses that we do � what we � can do.

That is � help others to discover the unity which we have found here at the Byzcath board. Take the fruit we have (understanding and appreciating each other) and put that out there for others. We can skip the discussions that we do here � and jump right to the fruit we have produced. And that fruit is specifically how to understand, get along with, etiquette, and appreciate � each others church experience.

I have to laugh (ha!) actually the Byzantine church feels that it is the bottom of the pile. Forgotten and despised by both the Orthodox and Catholic powers. The smallest and more inconsequential church going. Yet � look! Is there any other church in which such unity of all kinds � is at home and flourishes in reality that we all wish we could give to all others??

Let me put on my prophet robes for one minute� has God yet again chosen the smallest and weakest to birth the greatest task of all?? In truth � I wonder.

There are no �great� men. There are only men whom God has placed at the right place, at the right time, at right crossroads of history and shown them what he was going to do and asked �So � do you want to come along for the ride or shall I select someone else??�

Look around my friend at the time - it is written in the history of the world. Real unity is on the horizon as the world polarizes into shrinking Christian and growing anti-Christian. Christendom is almost finished in the West (the partnership of governments with Christianity). We have got to �circle the sacramental wagons� for what remains � and what remains will be people who have made the conscience choice � to stay with Christ.

A century ago each church was confined within its own geographical area ... now ... especially where churches have grown out of thier once ethinic area - one this street is a Catholic church and down the street is a Greek church and one block over is a Russian church and in the next townis a Coptic church... you can read the signs here right? The traditional geographic walls and ethic isolation - is being removed. The language barrier under which these churches grew - is getting 'gone'.

Gone are the days in which our children went to church because �everybody goes to church�.

Gone is the time in which Christianity was so huge that divisions did not harm it.

We are being forced by God toward a real unity of survival on so many fronts. A unity we did no plan out and which shall not be as we might have planned it.

It is going to happen from the bottom up.

So it seems to me that God is asking us...
�Hey are you 'in' for what I am about to do? or shall I get someone else?�


(Good grief I scare myself.)

And I bet anything John - that you will be one of the most valuable people to keep this whole concept on the right track and not veering off into useless alleys.

I once coined a Chinese proverb when I build a world wide network of 35,000 personal computers through cooperation of 35,000 independent volunteers. When someone came to me and detailed a problem "look - this is a problem etc.. etc.." I often said�

"Chinese proverb: He who sees the problem � is the man closest to the solution. He who recognises the illness is closoest to the cure." and then put that guy in charge of that thing.

That was the best Chinese proverb I ever made up out of my own head. it put that network together better than I myself could have done it.

-ray

-ray

Alice,
In a good Catholic fashion, I say to you "Bingo" you have hit the nail right on the head.I think we hold enough of the faith in common, for communion with each other, based on the first 1000 years. We could work out the finer points, down the road. All that it would take is a little humility on both our parts and an abiding respect for each other.
Stephanos I

Dear John ...

would you care to write up a little list of what unionoflaity.org - should not - do?? should not - be?

A propsal of "Union Of Laity is not... and does not.. so on and so on.." for us to consider. It might become the basis of our first 'offical document'


-ray

Are you asking us RC to teach you guys - bingo??

We Catholics believe bingo was part of the orginal revelation ya know.

-ray

I have said this in the past but it is good to repeat it.

I live in New England.

Here � there is no animosity between Orthodox and Catholic.

My wife was Greek Orthodox and I am Roman Catholic.

All our family weddings and funerals at St. Barbra�s Greek Orthodox Church.

I receive sacraments only at the RC but I am aware that attending an Orthodox liturgy satisfies my Roman requirement for weekly mass.

The local Russian Orthodox priest teaches Patristic at the local Roman Catholic seminary. And was one of the headline speakers last year for the state wide graduation of all Roman Catholic seminarians in Connecticut.

Lat year � there was an ordination of from deacon to Orthodox priest � the Russian Orthodox bishop or arch bishop (not sure � sorry) presided. There were about 200 people attended � one third of which were Catholic which included about 5 Catholic priests and 4 or 5 Catholic nuns.

I know for fact that St. Vladimir�s seminary in NJ uses books that were written by Catholics � as part of their courses. And I know for a fact that the largest Catholic seminary around uses books written by Orthodox within their courses.

Reality is that Orthodox and Catholic may transfer � with no hassle at all. Re-baptism is not done and no one has to renounce the pope. If anyone things this is against cannon � take it up with the presiding Orthodox bishops.

I have permission from the RC to have Orthodox priests as spiritual directors. No problem. I have had two in 15years. One Greek Orthodox and one Russian Orthodox.

Absolutely no one argues theology.

When theology and church teaching is said � no one ever says the other is wrong � we just state what we believe and leave it at that. For example � Orthodoxy teaches that the Pope of Rome is an equal � and they are right! They do not recognize him as jurisdictional head of the entire church � and that is correct no? they do not recognize him as any type of jurisdictional head. Correct. End of story. All true.

Catholics can go on recognizing him as the Universal Pontiff and Orthodox can go on recognizing him as a equal brother bishop. Where is the problem?? No where my friends. Not down here at the bottom.

When I eat with Orthodox friends it does not matter who leads prayer � which ever kind of priest is around at the time.

Because most RC churches in New England were built by immigrants from Ireland, Poland, Italy, etc.. they are mostly huge with granite and marble and a bit European looking. Eastern and Orthodox churches are the more modern � designed and built more recently. So when others say �I hate these modern Catholic churches� I think to myself that that is the Orthodox churches in my neck of the woods. Most Orthodox churches being built within the last 75 years and most Catholic stained-glass dated to 150 years ago.

Division exists only as an intellectual fact � and a mutual unity of love and respect exists as a practical fact � ever since I was a kid - in New England.

I was indeed surprised when I looked on the net and found Orthodox and Catholics arguing theology and �Latinization�. .. I had never seen or heard such a thing before.

I have a present sent to me by the Patriarch of Jerusalem sitting under my Catholic cross. I have two icons and three catholic like pictures.

I, being a Catholic, had been invited twice to a world wide conference for Orthodox theologians held twice in Massachusetts at a Roman Catholic retreat center.

And I am personal friends with a famous Orthodox theologian. We hug when we meet and he knows where the sandwich stuff is in my kitchen.

Here � is where unity � exists � in the heart.

All divisions are divisions that exist in the head and imagination. That has to be respected. That too has a reality. People who love puzzles.

We need to be people who love people. Union of the heart from the bottom up.

So anyone who tells me union is not possible - has just not lived in New England long enough.

-ray

As usual, Photius and I are at odds.

The Ecumenical Patriarch acknowledges Rome as our sister Church.

The SCOBA churches do not rebaptize Roman Catholics.

Photius belongs to ROCOR which is traditionalist/fundamentalist.

Yes, my monastic elder is one too.

THAT has nothing to do with this thread or with my views, but everything to do with my soul. I resent that something I told Photius in good faith, before he insulted me a few weeks ago, and for which I have received no apology, was brought up.

I know very little of God's mysteries, but I do know that there is no schism in Heaven. Until then we should all love one another in our Christ.

Sorrowfully,
Alice

Ray & Alice,

You are both blessed with charitable and loving hearts.

james

Dear John you said:

"However, I increasingly wonder if humility and mutual forgiveness is not enough for reunion. I increasingly wonder if we (Catholics and Orthodox) have become simply too different to be reunited into one Church organization. I increasingly wonder if we are now so different that the only real reunion possible is to agree to disagree and to live separate lives and to show each other decency and respect."

I say:

We didn't become different by chance. The West was was always different from the East. The Church in time began to reflect those differences in it's approach to Christian theology. Everything is within God's Will. He never intended to have us all the same... and yet we can all unite with Him, which only goes to show that our friction all comes down to self love and pride.

Oh I forget, money and real estate too.

Prayer is the answer.

In Christ,

Zenovia

Dear John you said:

Catholic? The Orthodox would object.

Orthodox? The Catholics would object.

I say:

The Church would be exactly the way it is now, with certain accepted universal Christian 'truths'.

In Christ,

Zenovia

The most concrete proposals for "reconciliation" (which is what I pray for daily, not reunion, which is something a little more distant) I heard following John Paul II's visit to Ukraine several years ago.

Now considering the recent religious history of Ukraine, with its various Orthodox divisions and with the scandalous violence that has marked Orthodox-Catholic relations in some places with the reemergence of the Greek Catholic Church, you perhaps wouldn't think of Ukraine as in ideal site for our reconciliation.

Yet many sincere voices supporting reconciliation were raised in Ukraine following John Paul II's visit. Among Greek Catholics it was even suggested that the UGCC would declare itself in communion with both Rome and Constantinople.

And I think we SHOULD promote reconciliation locally. If and when, Daj Bog as the Russians say, it happens, maybe it will be inspired by the iniciative of some local church distant from Rome, Constantinople, and Moscow.

Stojgniev

Dear Stojgniev,

Some here would like to discourage our hearts but we should always be optimistic, as it is not for us to say or to do, but to pray, and the Holy Spirit that will lead the way...After all, there is that old saying: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Friends,

I knew of a Ukrainian Catholic priest who commemorates both the Pope and the Orthodox Patriarchs!

I think we, as laity, Catholic or Orthodox, could achieve a great deal if, in our prayers, we would follow suit!

I also have derived a great deal of benefit from venerating Orthodox Saints like St Mark of Ephesus, St Photius (before I knew he was honoured by the Ruthenian Church as a Catholic Saint!), and the Orthodox Martyrs done in by the "Latins."

This does not mean that we ought to lose our sense of separate identity and being.

In fact, real communion is not about losing that - it is about strengthening it and also our clearer understanding of the other Church's identity and ontological being as a precondition for the experience of unity-based-on-communion.

Alex