www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West I don't want reunion now.

John, it isn't the THREAD that needs to be shut down...

Gaudior, still simmering over this

Dear Photios you said:

"Greece and in the U.S. want some kind of *spiritual* communion with the Pope could have their own church without clergy."

I say:

I believe the Holy Spirit works through the people. If I recall correctly, even the Metropolitan of Russia said that the 'movement' of the people world wide towards Pope John Paul II had to be the Holy Spirit. Don't you agree?

Also, over 50% of the Greek people wanted unity with the RC, so wouldn't that again be a movement of the Holy Spirit.

Yes there had been differences at the times of Photios and Mark of Ephesus, (I question their sanctity), but could it have been that our good Lord in all His Wisdom felt that there was no possible way that they could unite in a time and place where there was such a lack of communication between 'different' peoples.

Oh I said I question the sanctity of Photios and Mark of Ephesus only because of those that have given me 'their' interpretation. Unfortunately I lack the ability, or frankly the desire, (again due to those people), to read their works in the original.

Zenovia

I agree that the highly personal nature of some of the replies being made in this thread are not especially pertinent to its topic. Nonetheless, I dont think you should close this thread administrator. Yes it is becoming antagonistic but I think it serves to underline what John and Ray have been debating.

Here at byzcath we all get on pretty well (in spite of the odd occasions where we have clashes), indeed we get on so well that I think we might have developed a skewered perspective of the world around us. The world is full of varying types of people who have varying views and we at Byzcath are just a small section of their number.

There will always be people in the West who view the Easterners as Schismatic and always those in the East who view the Westerners as heretical innovators with no respect for tradition. This is a fact of life, hard as it is to swallow, try as we might to work together for a better future. We are a small bridge, just as the Byzantine church is a small bridge between East and West. But around us are tempestous waters and well the current at the moment is very strong against our foundations.

I think some of the things that have been said are hurtful and uncalled for. Things spoken in trust behind closed doors have been spoken on the internet where things couldnt be more public. Yet, the spirit in which these things were said is not something we can simply dismiss. There are those on both sides who simply will not concede ground. It is a reality we must face and make our decisions about accordingly.

One of the most frightening things for me lately is reading how many people are threatening to leave the Byzantine Ruthenian church because the liturgy is changing. I can empathise with your feelings I'm sometimes pop to the Tridentine Mass at the Oxford Oratory to capture the old. However, the liturgy being minorly altered (in a way that is nothing compared to what Paul VI did to the Roman rite) is not a reason to change churches. That is pure emotivism and for a student of the true sciences such sentiment from Christians I find truly, truly troubling. Emotivism has no place in our religion.

If this thread and many others like it on Byzcath lately e.g. the Pope of What, what do we have to fear etc.etc point something out its really that many of us need to go away and ask ourselves: What is it I believe? What can I confirm and where does my conscience lead me accordingly. If you can just leave the Byzantine Catholic church over liturgical changes I'd say there is something deeply wrong with your attitude towards your faith. Do you actually believe in the claims of the Roman Bishop? Do you actually think the unions of the 16th and 17th century were a good idea? If you dont and you think the evidence in favour is refutable then why are you Byzantine Catholic? I dont mean to offend anyone with what I'm saying but I think these threads, topics, posts should make us all very reflective about what it is we claim to profess belief in.

We must accept that as they are now things are not going to get much better. None of us will see Rome and Constantinople in full communion within our lifetime. If Constantinople did try such a move she would risk a huge schism within her own body and perhaps a rival Patriarchy of Constantinople being set up. This is no secret and Bartholomew I is no idiot, he is fully aware of this. The lines in the sand have been drawn and though the tides might shift around them, they have been drawn and now people have a responsibility to learn and make educated choices, real choices about where their futures lay.

There's one more reason why we should all do our part, in prayer and practice, to further reconciliation: A Church with Catholicism and Orthodoxy reconciled (not necessarily unified in all respects, but certainly reconciled in heart) would be so much more than what we have now.

Believing that God is angered by our divisions, we must acknowledge that Orthodoxy and Catholicism do not make "two halves of what was once a whole." Without reconciliation, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are LESS than two halves of the whole. In the divine arithmatic, one Apostolic Church would be much more than just the sums of its parts.

It is something I have thought about since childhood. And we have seen in our lifetime what many would say is an ever greater miracle than reconciliation: the fall of communism. If we can witness the fall of communism, then shouldn't we anticipate a day when we will see Catholicism and Orthodoxy embrace in a spirit of true Christian love and humillity?

Stojgniev

Dear Photios,

I didn't realize that Alice's exceptional fluency in explaining how unity could come about, (undoubtably a gift from God), could be so threatening to some people. Otherwise how else can one explain your reaction to her.

I also think it is unwise to reveal things that have been said in private on a public forum. Taking advantage of a person's 'naivete' is not very wise and might have an opposite affect from that which you intended. Remember, one can never go against one's conscience, (for even saints had their differences). If her spiritual father is in a high state of Grace, (and he could be), that does not mean that she is not as equally high for having different opinions.

Her opinions towards unity could be a development given to her from our Lord because of her particular environment, nurturing and circumstances, and yet not given to another... even though they might be in a similar lofty spiritual position. Undoubtably the experiences of her spiritual father, (as well as his knowledge of the RC), might be quite different.

I think the eloquence of Alice's writing speaks for itself. Certainly no one could place themselves (when considering it), in a position of judgement.

Zenovia

I ask forgiveness from all, including Photius, for losing my temper, which is something I rarely do.

I also ask that Photius refrain from further insulting, judging, and condemning me for my views. Because of this I got to the point of anger, and that is something which is not good for or edifying to my soul, my health, or to others reading here.

I ask that he cease 'discussing' me publicly with other posters. I ask that he cease being obsessed over my viewpoints and trying to exert his own opinions and control over me. God touches and speaks to us all differently.

There are more than enough Orthodox priests and monks visiting and posting here to correct or challenge my opinions of the heart and spirit-- for that is all they are-- if they wish to. To date, none have, and I rejoice in that I have wonderful mutually respectful spiritual friendships with many of them as I respect their loving and charitable dispositions and their holy vocations.

For the three years that I have been here, John, our esteemed Administrator has managed, through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit and his own Christian integrity, to make this forum a peaceful place of respect, love and charity--a true microcosm of Heaven!

I pray that this will continue and that the spirit of control and anomosity towards our brethren in the West that is taking hold will be rebuked in the love that is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

In HIS HOLY NAME,
Alice, a sinner

It is disconcerting, to say the least, when someone purportedly representing an "enlightened" Church runs rough shod over everybody else (not to mention over a respectable and charitable lady from your own Orthodox confession).

But, then, one's attitude may be a reflection of the minority position that person has been cornered into after all these years of separation from the mother Church--one tries to shore up a pseudo-exalted view of what Orthodoxy (and Catholicism) should be.

One's self-declaration of being the "king of the mountain" could, in reality, be a result of a delusion for being merely a "fool on a hill!"

Amado

Dear Myles you said:

"We must accept that as they are now things are not going to get much better. None of us will see Rome and Constantinople in full communion within our lifetime. If Constantinople did try such a move she would risk a huge schism within her own body and perhaps a rival Patriarchy of Constantinople being set up. This is no secret and Bartholomew I is no idiot, he is fully aware of this."

I say:

Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit. Pope John PaulII is a saint, and his greatest desire was to see the East and West unite. It has always been that the 'works' and wishes of a saint would come about after their death. So let's be patient.

In Christ,

Zenovia

As far as its possible for Britons to be optimistic I will try. I am one of 'Thatcher's children' and my generation thus tends to be pessimistic about a lot. Yet, I will do my best to not be too English in my outlook

I remember that Mrs. Thatcher was at one time more highly regarded in the U.S. than in her own country. She even said so herself. I think there will be unity someday, but like you said, Myles, I don't look for it in our lifetimes. When it comes, it will develop from the ground up - from the ordinary people who unite and then bring the hierarchs into union. It's been tried from the top down before, and it didn't last very long.

I remain hopeful about the restoration of communion between East and West, but I don't think it will happen any time soon. There are too many theological disagreements that simply cannot be 'papered over.'

Photius,

Your posts are not just bending the rule of charity they are breaking it into a million pieces! I�m sorry, but I just cannot allow you to pass judgment on another person�s spiritual life. No Orthodox Christian I know of would make such a judgment of another�s spiritual life. I must ask you to apologize to Alice for your comment or risk a 30 day timeout.

You are obviously a knowledgeable person but you must choose to conduct yourself with charity and civility.

As to the issues you are discussing, I hope you realize that there are numerous opinions within Orthodoxy and that your militant positions do not represent the opinions of all Orthodox. You are really accomplishing nothing except giving Orthodoxy a bad name. I really cannot allow that. Other Orthodox posters manage to present their particular Orthodox position with charity. Please strive to do the same.

I will leave this thread open only for Photius to post an apology to Alice. All other posts will be deleted. Once Photius responds this thread will be closed.

Admin

Dear Zenovia,
What is this about? I never did any such thing, nor would I!

For the record, Alice and I have never exchanged private messages or otherwise communicated other than in this forum publicly.

Photius

Dear Photios,

I apologize! I didn't realize Alice's revalations about her spiritual father, (that you seem to mention quite often), were made public on this forum.

For your information, (and I say this as an Orthodox), Alice appears to be one of the very few Orthodox that fully support the monasteries. Why are you destroying that?

I find it disgraceful also that anyone would say something uncharitable about the Pope, especially on an RCC forum. I cannot perceive it as anything other than a deliberate insult to our hosts. Do you realize that because of the high esteem that the Pope is held in, it would be the equivalent of insulting one's 'mother' to one's face.

But then again, I have found that to be quite common among many Orthodox. They antogonize to the point of no return, and when retaliation occurs...they cry foul.

Zenovia

Dear brother John (harmon3110),
I'm not sure if the Administrator will delete this, but as you requested in your p.m., here are my insignificant thoughts about your view on reunion (no personal attacks here).

you said:
reply: This is true. But any web site advocating reunion, I would imagine, would also offer information to help to shed light on our historic differences to encourage better understanding of one another. The more familiar we become with one another, the less ignorance will exist. Familiarity provided by such web sites can also encourage mutual repentance and forgiveness which will help to end the bitterness.

But I think we all need to consider the following point:

What if God has decided to harden the hearts of enough of our leaders in order keep the ancient apostolic Churches divided due to our own sinfulness (much like what happened to those at the Tower of Babel)? Perhaps, in God's wisdom, by allowing division there is a kind of balance of power which keeps our Church leaders in check and prevents them from abusing their power and leadership authority? Perhaps the division of our Churches has kept our respective theologians from getting "too progressive" in their respective theological schools (cf. 2 St. Jn. vrs. 9)? Can we not but admit that our historic division has actually acted as a stabilizing force much akin to the "separation of powers" in the U.S. Government? Remember, "God's ways are not our ways" (cf. Esaias 55:8-9). Based on this, I conclude that we should work for unity, without trying to force the hand of God or second guess the present situation we find ourselves in. Either way, we know what we are called to, the rest is in God's hands. In fact, we may be judged not only on how much we work for unity but also on how patient and trusting we are in His wisdom and control over the entire situation of Christian disunity.

you said:
reply:
A great insight here! I totally agree with you that many differences have existed since the beginning and this is foundational to understanding any authentic approach to reunion. While deeply desiring reunion with our separated brethren, I also share your guarded optimism about "reunion now." It is going to take time to heal the wounds. Yet we should not despair if reunion does not come in our life time. We are so very blessed to live in a time when the historic Churches are enjoying probably the closest bond they have ever had since the time of the historic schisms! That, in itself, is truly an "amazing grace!" Therefore, we do not want to quench the burning flame for reunion. Rather let us fan it into a greater blaze! Such web sites which call for unity, far from doing any harm, might actually help us on our way (in whatever way the Spirit will allow). Yet rather than trying to force reunion which will come at the right time -or may never come until our Lord's return- what we should be advocating is reciprocal brotherly affection between the members of our Churches. This is something WE CAN concretely accomplish in our lifetime.

I also agree that the mixing of our peoples can not but help to benefit -at least- the reestablishment of brotherly love between our Churches and mutual understanding. Example: My wife's Latin-Roman Catholic family which didn't even know what an Orthodox Christian was, had to deal with the prospect of one of their daughters marrying an Antiochene Orthodox of Arab descent. This gave me an opportunity to do much educating among them, which I seized! Ironically (or Providentially) this situation also opened and paved the way for my own embracement of Orthodoxy. So now, a sizeable portion of their family is Orthodox and living in good spiritual harmony with their Catholic in-laws. At first this was very stressful on both sides. But now there is much understanding between us. Not only this, as mentioned above, the situation between our Churches is very good. Even though we are not in full Communion, economia is such that Communion is given to our spouses in our respective Churches. Short of full restoration of unity, what more can we ask for in our lifetime?

So, I agree with your guarded approach to the question of reunion and recognize it may never come before our Lord's return. But I also see such web sites -as long as they do not try to force the hand of God- as nothing but beneficial to helping us along the way by fostering brotherly affection and light between us. Let me know your thoughts in reply to this.

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. Ghazar