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When I have attended a Mass done traditionally, I have found that I much preferred a "blended" approach (English and Latin) to having everything done purely in Latin. To me, the idea of celebrating the entire Mass in nothing but Latin borders on the ridiculous - perhaps even the idolatrous.

Did not the Word become Flesh to "translate" the Gospel into the "language" of visible humanity? Suppose Jesus showed up in Ancient Israel speaking Japanese. How many disciples would there have been?

It reminds me of the edict from Rome my father told me about while he was in seminary. It mandated (under pain of mortal sin, no doubt) that all seminary classes were to be taught in Latin. The edict had to be translated so that all of the students would understand.

Restoring Latin is not the silver bullet some have made it out to be. Restoring the traditional ethos (coupled with evangelical joy) to Latin Catholic worship is.

Gordo

"Of the Western Rites in the Orthodox Church, by far the best is the Gallican Liturgy as restored in France - it's Orthodox, beautiful, and with magnificent music. The scholarship which went into the restoration in the twentieth century is excellent."

That it is beautiful I have no doubt, but to be the best of the Western Rites it would have to actually be a restoration of the Gallican Rite rather than a reconstruction as well as heavily Byzantinized, more so than either of the Antiochian Western Rites. On the other hand the Sarum Use as used by ROCOR is a true restoration without Byzantine alloy.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon,

One of the Western Rite priests told me about how the Sarum tradition prescribed the praying of 600 Psalters for the soul of a reposed bishop!

And how when a lay-person died, they read the psalter over the body immediately and then took turns throughout the night to read it another four times and then once more the day of the internment . . .

Could it be . . .

Is it possible there were Western rites that were as ascetical or even MORESO than the Eastern Church?

If that is true, please don't respond publicly to confirm!

We wouldn't want word on that getting out, would we?

(Dear Andrew/Rilian, please note the above smiley before you think of coming after me again! )

Alex

Personally, I don�t see an issue with the use of multiple rites, and I can see some benefits in a plurality of liturgical rites being used in the church. I have absolutely no experience with any Western Rite community in Orthodoxy however, so I can�t comment on them in particular.

Regarding the changes to the Anglican liturgy, I suppose there are a few things to keep in mind. It is obvious the English Reformation had a decidedly Protestant focus early on, but that this shifted about over time. I believe for instance the Black Rubric was backed out in later versions of the BCP, and that the real presence (at least in some form) was officially affirmed. There was at least enough openness in the tradition to allow for the high church revival of the 19th century, although obviously the possibility was always there for different interpretations. Interestingly I remember reading once that the Non Jurists at one time came very close to being accepted as they were by the Ecumenical Patriarch, but that things fell apart over the issue of images in worship which they viewed as optional and not required.

One thing nearly all Orthodox in the English speaking world make use of that is a product of the Anglican Church is the Authorized Version of Holy Scripture. Many, including his eminence Metropolitan Isaiah of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver, view it as the most faithful to the Byzantine Text and favor it above all other English translations.

I don�t know enough about the Sarum Rite to comment on it, but I seem to recall some aspects of it were incorporated in the Anglican Missal produced in the 19th century.

One last point, the WRO are not the only group that have been given permission to incorporate the Anglican liturgy. An Anglican Use Rite I believe has received approval in the Roman Catholic Church. See this link [en.wikipedia.org] . I would guess they did not see the Anglican liturgy as being intrinsically heretical, at least once corrected.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

(Do I have your permission to speak with you here? You promise not to bite my head off? )

O.K. then . . .

The Western Rite Orthodox priest I've known for a number of years now has indicated that while the "Rite of St Tikhon" is approved by the Antiochian Orthodox Church, many of the Western Rite priests, over time, seem to want to go "beyond" it and begin studying the Sarum and other old usages of the British tradition.

The Sarum Usage is indeed extant and can be faithfully observed as it is not only among some Catholic parishes, but also among some very High Church Anglican parishes (I understand the Anglican Church allowed for multiple rites as well and, at one time, allowed for the Swedish Liturgy to be used by Swedish members of the Anglican Church. Anglican Bishop Henry Hill, author of "Light from the East" also assists at Assyrian Liturgies, as he has told me, and distributes Communion etc.).

One problem that has historically been experienced by BOTH East and West after they parted ways was that not only the real issues of faith came to be regarded as barriers to full communion with each other, but also some issues of "rite" and ritual seem to have been, for want of a better term, "artificially elevated" into a point of doctrine.

It is not surprising then for there to have been Roman Catholic bishops who regarded even the Eastern heritage of EC's as "half Catholic" and a temporary indulgence in order to make of us "full (Latin) Catholics."

And it is likewise not surprising to hear, and in my experience not only from Mark of Ephesus here, the view that the Western Rites of Orthodoxy are likewise to be dissuaded, are "temporary in nature" (as expressed during a Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox conference I attended in Toronto) and the like.

If you want to come after me, please be gentle!

Fasting makes me sensitive all over!

Alex

"As to the Sarum Rite, since we really do not know how it was celebrated, it's sort of liturgical Jurassic Park reviving it."

Glory to Jesus Christ!

While this comment would be correct if made about the Gallican "rite," it is totally incorrect about the Sarum "rite" (which is not, by the way, a "rite," but a "use" within the Western Rite).

We have complete books of ceremonial for the ENTIRE Sarum Use (Mass, Divine Office, and Sacraments, with all the attendant chant) that survived the Reformation. It would be a monumental work to revive it in its fulness (as it has often been said about the use of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople) because of the sheer number of people needed (ancilliary ministers, etc.) to celebrate it. But it would most certainly be possible to do it with historical accuracy.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Professor,

Thanks for your informative clarification. Do you know anything about the historical sources for the Gallican liturgy? I understand that there is an Orthodox Gallican liturgy extant in France. St John Maximovich on occasion celebrated the said liturgy. Do you from what sources it is derived?

The Sarum Use as used by St. Petroc Monastery of ROCOR:

http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/sarum.htm

About everything you culd want to know about the Western Rite Orthodox:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite

On the Divine Liturgy of St. Germanus:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Divine_Liturgy_according_to_St_Germanus_of_Paris

Which contradicts my assertation of reconstructionism, but I have seen both assertations.

Deacon Lance,

Thank you for the links. Through one of them I was lead to a link of eglise Orthodoxe de France:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/

It appears they celebrate Holy Week using Western Paschalion: Pascha is April 16 this year.

I don't think that Latin is in immediate danger. I myself that was never taught Latin at school, know some by the Latin version of the New Mass.

The Liturgy of St. Germanus in English:
http://orthodoxie.free.fr/liturgy_of_st_germanus.htm

Upon further inspection I stand behind my comment it is a heavily Byzantinized reconstruction.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Friends,
Here's something I hadn't seen before and was wondering if some of you were familiar with it.

"We find the most recent treatment of the so-called patriarchal rite, still the subject of much debate and practiced in the basilica up until 1807 when the Roman one was imposed, in the aforementioned work by Cattin (Musica e liturgia a San Marco, Venice 1990). The patriarchal rite was neither of Eastern origin, nor was it derived from the patriarchate of Aquileia, though this is where the name comes from. Instead, it was a Roman rite that was common in the Latin Church and had a number of unusual features. These included the use of the Roman Psalter, as in the Vatican basilica, while the rest of the Church followed the so-called Gallican Psalter, and liturgical colors that differed from those of the Roman rite. A few of the basilica's liturgical chants survived even after 1807 but were finally droopped when Latin was abolished in recent reforms. In essence they belonged to the current of Roman liturgy, embellished with virtuoso graces as in the chant of the Epistle and the Gospel, but producing a quite different effect in the chants of the Lamentations in Holy Week and in the readings at the first nocturn of the Christmas Matins. In these, the velvety softness of the voices and their melismas gave the impression, if not remote origins in the Eastern Church or in the synagogue, at least of a respectful antiquity."
quoted from "The Basilica of St. Mark in Venice edited by Ettore Vio, SCALA/RIVERSIDE 1999.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

This is one answer I know from personal experience as well as from scholarship. <G>

The Liturgy of St. Germain de Paris is certainly a construct of the basic outline of a Gallican Eucharist with considerable add-ons from Byzantium and from Rome.

It begins with a Prothesis rite which is not Byzantine in text but uses Byzantine utensils such as the lance.

The Mass of the Catechumens begins with a diaconal call to attention followed by a clergy entrance during the singing of the Introit (which is also called the "Praelegendum," according to Gallican and Mozarabic usage, but seems to be the Roman text.

There is an "entrance dialogue" done sotto voce by the clergy, followed by a diaconal announcement and the Dominus vobiscum/et cum spiritu tuo, followed by the singing of the Trisagion in Greek, Latin, and French (I am working from the French text of the liturgy).

This is followed by the "Blessed is the Kingdom" from the Byzantine liturgies, followed by an Amen and a Kyrie eleison.

This is followed by a Canticle, seasonally variable:

(a) Benedictus in Advent and Lent
(b) Beatitudes in Time after Pentecost
(c) Gloria in Excelsis Sundays outside the above

The COLLECT is chanted here

The Liturgy of the Word is a little different:

(1) certain times: Old Test. Reading OR
a reading from the lives of the Saints
(2) The GRADUAL of the day
(3) The EPISTLE
(4) The BENEDICTUS ES from the Book of Daniel
(the chant for this is the Roman Tone V)
(5) The ALLELUIA or the TRACT

A special announcement of the Gospel
Deacon: Agios! Sanctus! Holy!
is the Lord God almighty.
All: Who was, who is, who is to come!

The Gospel responses are typically Western.

There is a post-Gospel "hymn" from the Apocalypse of St. John.

HOMILY

After the homily comes the LITANY OF PEACE from the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, responded to with "Kyrie eleison."

This is followed by the Collect "Post-Precem," which is a proper from the Gallican use.

Then an exchange between priest and people followed by the chanting of the Creed (not sung at every single liturgy). The melody given in Gregorian Credo I ("authenticus"), without the Filioque.

The Great Entrance is now made. Though there is a reference to the "Sonus" chant in the proper, there is a "fall-back" entrance chant based on the one from the Liturgy of St. James, also used in the Byzantine churches on Great and Holy Saturday. It is also noted that "Alleluia" is replaced in this hymn during Lent by "Glory to you, O Lord."

* * * * * * * *

As can be observed by someone well-versed in liturgical scholarship (and you can see more of it in the websites quoted above by Deacon Lance), this liturgy is a "construct" of various liturgical uses.

The chant that is sung with it is ofent Gregorian, but heavily influenced by Russian "obichod" and sung in harmony.

That doesn't make any of this bad---but if you're looking for a pre-Schism celebration of the Gallican Liturgy, this is not the place to look. Since we don't have all the pieces (either in text or in rubric or in chant), that would be hard to do.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA