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I've seen that the Orthodox Church in Albania is much more active than the latins in their missionary work, thanks to the wonderful labour of His Beatitude Anastas. There are many young people who are being baptized in the Orthodox Church and the priests do not hesitate in doing that (asking them for talks and paper work).

I suppose that they have English in some places because of the aid they receive from Orthodox groups in the USA and the missionaries. They also use Greek because many priests and Bishops are Greek and after all, their Church was quite hellenized, even before Hoxha.

It is my understanding that Islam is quite nominal there, most people are secular as you said, or atheists, and the muslims hardly know things about their religion. This is why christianity could work well there in the future (and the Protestant sects will be active there I guess, I suppose Protestantism is less bad than Islam )

I know few about the Catholic Church there. Most albanian Catholics are from Montenegro and Northern Albanian. I read that in Albania, the catholic Mass is generaly celebrated in the old fashion and in Latin. I don't know if there's a kind of indult in Albania, similar to that of Britain but that is possible.

Just a quick clarification.

The word "Illyria" ("Iliria" in Albanian) is from the Albanian root adjective "i lire" which means free. The Illyrians describe themselves as "the free people" or "iliret" in the nominative plural. There is no firm connection with the Greek word "eleutheria" which means "free," if that is what Three Cents was getting at.

this site: go.to/arvanites deals more thoroughly with speculation on common Illyrian and Greek/Hellenic origins in the mountains of Epirus, as does Biris' book, the title of which I'll post here if anyone is interested, but the text is in Greek.

The official (communist era) numbers for Albania were 20% Orthodox Catholic and 10% Roman Catholic, but I believe reality to be closer to 25% and 15% respectively, especially since the massive baptisms (10,000 or more in Tirana alone).
Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics in Elbasan are almost extinct. Muslims are split between Sunni and Bektashi (accurate numbers I don't have). Sunni and Shites have traditionally considered Bektashi to be heretical. Considering their veneration of the Theotokos, St. Spiridon, etc, I'd say they are surely heterodox. Protestants by the thousands are present and recruiting more adherents all of the time.

Since 1991, it has been the policy of the Orthodox Church to worship in the language of the people. In the few Greek villages around Sarranda and the border, its Greek (Orthodox in and around Gjirokaster are primarily ethnic Albanians, many of whom speak Greek as a second language. In the Balkans, speaking a second language is the norm rather than the exception and is useful in attracting foreign assistance). In the Vllach villages, its Vllach. In Korca there is also a Vllach Church. Yes, a little English is even used when visitors, like me, are around.

Warm regards in the new year!

Dear Andrew,

Why does the Russian Church insist on Slavonic? Is it because most of it is understandable to Russians?

Alex

Thanks for the information, now I can figure out what that song "Njeri i Lir�" sung by lovely Alketa Vejsiu, means

Well it was my understanding that the Bektashi were a remnant of some gnostic and bogomile sects who the converted to Islam, and of many "hidden" christians. Most of them must be "hidden" christians. A good pastoral labour among them is needed.

Yes the Orthodox is quite active in Albania, it's today the most important missionary Church in Albania (much more than the Latin Church). A lot of young people are being baptized in the Orthodox Church, masive baptisms.

The Roman Church has not been very active in Albania, but its is the most important christian Church among Albanians outside Albania, specially in Montenegro and Kosova, where massive conversions of Muslims have taken place as a sign of the revival of their national identity (entire villages have massively converted to Roman Catholicism in Kosova and Northern Albania). It's also interesting that in Scutari and Midrita for example, Albanian catholic women are veiled , while most muslims have abandoned that practice.

That is very nice, I hope to visit Albania someday, to visit a very special person, :rolleyes: I know it's difficult now, but I hope and pray that everything will be possible

How close is Church Slavonic to the modern Slavic languages? I thought that Bulgarian and Serbian were the closest (so they could understand the services in Slavonic), is this true? What do you think about the modern vernacular liturgies in Ukraine? has there been a problem with the vernacular language in the Liturgy?

Si Jeni, Andreas?

How are you, Andrew?

It was great seeing you and your wife at Holy Cross with Greg and Met. John! Everytime I send your brother an email it bounces, by the way. Have you got a better one for the Commonwealth Kid?

My quote was from Romans 15 on Illyria, and it was a part of our historical orientation meeting in Shen Vlash. One of the patron saints of the newly reopened cathedral in Durres across the street from the Italian cruise ships is St. Paul. Bible commentaries also say that it is an area including the present Albania. Some NT translations use the Latin Illyricum.

Keep in touch (and have your brother get me his correct addy). My best to you wife and her family in Albania. I spent some time privately with His Eminence, Met. John at HC, and totally enjoyed the Balkan ethnic conflicts weekend. My Master's Thesis for Balamand on the topic should be done within 2 to 3 weeks.

Christ Is Born! Let Us Glorify Him!
Mirupafshim!
Your brother in Christ,
Stefan
Steve Sherokey

Dear Brethren,

We've drifted off of the theme of "Turkish Orthodox."

However, regarding Slavonic as a liturgical language, I think that there is a base level at which any speaker of any Slavic language can understand "Glory to the Father, and to the Son...." It would take an person educated in their own Slavic language's grammar to actively decipher Church Slavonic while it is being read. One needs to be listening for the roots, prefixes and suffixes, as I have done sometimes, and could probably understand 50% or more. But, I was trained for four years to do just that while studying Russian. Technically, Bulgarian should be the closest, at least in written form.

I'm always in favor of the vernacular, but of a beautiful and correct vernacular. Apostle Paul insists upon it. Liturgy should change, but slowly, out of need, and not out of convenience or caprice. We originally prayed; "sail with those who sail and travel with those who travel by sea and by land." Then we added "by air" because of large numbers in flight. I agree. Lately, some have added "and by space." This sounds like caprice to me because maybe seven people go to space each month. As an example, one astronaut was even (Albanian) Orthodox from Jamestown, NY (Col. Gregory, as I recall). Let them pray for him in his parish and diocese. It's not necessary to rush into liturgical changes.

The Russian Orthodox Church is a monolith. A monolith changes slowly. Changes create factions. Once enough believers are pulled away to the Protestants or Roman Catholics, they will change to the vernacular.

I hadn't heard of the RCC's success in Kosova and Montenegro with Albanian Muslims. The Albanian Orthodox Church actually held a youth camp in Kosova this past year. Perhaps there will be some competition.

Regarding the Bektashi, they have a very deep spirituality. Many of them have come to Orthodoxy and have excelled. Metropolitan Joan/John of Korca has Bektashi lineage on his father's side and Orthodox lineage on his mother's side.

Steve, if you need to reach me, try arubis@covenanthousepa.org

Regards to all in Christ.

Regarding the scriptural reference to Illyria, in the Greek text the Apostle Paul uses a word which in this context means either "up to the border of" or "just in to." This border was just south of Durres along the Shkumbini River over to Lake Ohrid. North of the border was Illyria and south of it Epirus. Illyria was "pure" Albanian and Epirus was more "mixed" with primarily Albanian speakers, but also many Greek-speakers. Strabo testifies well to the border of Epirotes and Greeks being at the Gulf of Arta.

Emp. Diocletian (an Illyrian) later (295-305 AD)expanded the borders of Illyricum to include most of Macedonia and Epirus.

It is likely that Paul did make it to Durres because of the early Church there of some 50+ families. Also, the "Apollos" to whom he refers may well be the first Bishop of Durres by the same name. "Ceasar" and "Bp. Asti" (98 AD?) are early saints of Durres.

The Church of Albania really has the full sources for this discussion.

In Christ.

There's no such thing as Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics.

also, a religious patrimony is not an animal species, therefore, they do not become extinct.

Axios

Dear SPDundas,

There are if, as our friend Andrew appears to believe, when an Orthodox Christian comes into communion with Rome, he or she ceases to be Orthodox and is transformed into a "Roman Catholic" with Latin theological, canonical etc. perspectives while using a "Byzantine Rite" for public worship.

The notion of an Orthodox Catholic in communion with Rome is something that some, like our friend Andrew, it would appear, refuse to acknowledge.

And it's a free country.

Alex

Dear Alex,

You've stated the position of the Orthodox Catholic Church [not in communion with Rome - to be clear] very well. It is the position that I've always accepted, but never joyously.

Our split is a sad one for me, having spent more than a year worshiping and chanting, but never communing, in a Byzantine Rite Roman Catholic parish in southern Italy.

I wish that it were as simple as lex orandi, lex credendi. But God can heal even this.

With love in Christ,

Dear Andrew,

Actually, I've stated the position of SOME Orthodox Churches and obviously that with which you agree - or believe IS the one and only position of the Orthodox Church.

And you know I'm not berating you and I thank you for your ecumenical sentiments.

There truly ARE Eastern Catholics who fit the above description. Their theology et al. is truly Roman Catholic - even pre-Vatican II style. And for them the Byzantine "Rite" is simply different externals such as vestments and other forms.

But there are many, many other "Orthodox in communion with Rome" who don't see it that way and for whom the term "Byzantine Rite Roman Catholic" is totally offensive.

A Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan, Met. Ilarion Ohienko, wrote a series of books on Orthodoxy within the context of "Faith and Culture."

Although he deemed the Eastern Catholics "traitors to Orthodoxy," he esteemed those who called themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome" rather than "Catholics."

Like Met. Anthony Khrapovitsky before him, he saw in the Greek Catholics true Orthodox Christians who were often very conservative in their dedication to the Eastern Church liturgy and discipline. Like him too, he wished the Eastern Catholics would "come home." But he never disparaged them as "Roman Catholics."

That term means something MORE than just the acceptance of a number of Western theological theologoumena. It refers to a broad spectrum of a Western religious culture that is TOTALLY foreign to Eastern Catholics or "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

My father and other relatives actually had an aversion to Roman Catholicism (I do not).

The commemoration of the Pope during the liturgy was the only difference they saw and while they were firm in loyalty to the Pope, they were frightened out of their wits at the thought of Latinization - which, for them, meant denationalization i.e. transformation from Ukrainians into Poles etc.

Please be mindful of the fact that we find your calling us "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite" offensive.

Faith and culture cannot be easily separated and this is largely a Western, North American phenomenon where this occurs in theory.

If you would like to be ecumenical, I would recommend that you refrain from using this offensive term in future.

There are other websites where such terminology would be welcome.

This isn't one of them.

Alex

********** TURKISH POLICE CLOSE ISKENDERUN PROTESTANT CHURCH Congregation's Activities Accused of 'Offending Society' by Barbara G. Baker
ISTANBUL, July 9 (Compass) --

Turkish security police ordered a Protestant Christian congregation meeting for 40 years in the southeastern port city of Iskenderun to close its doors in mid June, declaring the church had "no legal basis" and that its activities were harmful to society.

Pastor Yusuf Yasmin, 71, was served official notice by the security police of Hatay province to close and stop all activities of the New Testament Church in Iskenderun.

The abrupt two-page order was dated and delivered on June 14 to Yasmin, who was ordered to remove the church sign and list of worship services from the building by 5:00 p.m. the same day.

According to a copy of the directive obtained by Compass, the church was ordered to close "because your activities will incite religious, sectarian and dervish-order discrimination; will harm religious and national feelings; and will create offense in the society."

Signed by District Security Director Salih Gokalp, the order declared that the church's location had not been approved in the municipal zoning plan and that no religious or other private education of any kind could be allowed on the premises without the express permission of the Ministry of Education.

The church has met in its current location for the past seven years without previous complaints from the Turkish authorities.

Yasmin and the majority of his congregation, averaging 80 to 90 worshippers at Sunday services, are Turkish citizens from a variety of ethnic Christian backgrounds. The Protestant church has met for worship in the city since 1963, although after its original place of worship was torn down in 1970, the congregation met in the church facilities of the local Armenian Orthodox Church for 25 years.

In 1995, the congregation purchased and moved into its own church facility in Iskendurun's Piri Reis district, notifying local authorities on June 26, 1995, of the location and set times of worship, Bible studies and religious seminars.

In compliance with local zoning regulations, Yasmin informed all the other owners of residences and shops in the building that his church had purchased Flat C to be used as a place of Christian worship. "None of them had any problem with this, and all of them signed the notarized forms giving their consent," Yasmin said.

In an indirect admission, the police order acknowledges that "there is no provision in our laws concerning the construction and use of 'places of worship.'" But it goes on to insist that "it is not possible for places of worship to be built in random places" under the country's zoning laws.

"We are not enemies of the state," a bewildered Yasmin said today by telephone from Iskenderun. "We love our nation. So why are they doing this to us?" After pastoring and preaching for 43 years, Yasmin admitted he had found it very difficult to be forbidden to worship with his congregation for the past month.

A lawyer retained by the New Testament Church confirmed today that he is preparing to file a case later this week before the administrative courts on behalf of the Iskenderun Protestants to regain their constitutional rights to freedom of worship and religious activities.

Iskenderun is located just 25 miles from Antakya (ancient Antioch), where the New Testament says Christ's followers were first called Christians. With a population of 160,000 population, Iskenderun still bears the name of its 4th century B.C. founder, Alexander the Great.
END
********** Copyright 2002 Compass Direct

Dear Alex,

I'll try, but not guarantee, that I'll avoid subject term out of consideration. I don't believe that you are applying it evenly, however. So far, the Administrator has not mentioned anything to me. If the terminology is offensive, this would be a good time for him to write.

As an example in the context of this, I call my own parishes where I go "Byzantine Rite Orthodox Catholic Churches/Parishes" The "Orthodox Catholic" in my terminology is a designation of communion. We have Western Rite Orthodox Catholics and, hopefully, soon will have Coptic Rite Orthodox Catholics in our communion.

I was early on schooled in this direction by my friends in Opus Dei who correctly provided me with a chart showing all of the various rites within the Roman Catholic Church. They simply wanted to demonstrate that "there's plenty of room in the tent" or words to that effect. They stressed that no one rite was dominant, since the Pope is head of all of the rites. Etc. The Byzantine Rite of which you are a member is not just in communion with Rome, but it's ecclesial head sits in Rome and is the that same Pope.

Ultimately, both RCC and OCC are giving themselves the same title (THE one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church) and claiming the same apostolic authority. Somewhere in the terminology, a delineation needs to occur as to communion.

I don't believe that you are denying that you are part of the Roman Catholic Church, nonetheless, I'll try to accomodate this sensitivity regarding the combination of terminology.

With love in Christ.

"As an example in the context of this, I call my own parishes where I go "Byzantine Rite Orthodox Catholic Churches/Parishes" The "Orthodox Catholic" in my terminology is a designation of communion. We have Western Rite Orthodox Catholics and, hopefully, soon will have Coptic Rite Orthodox Catholics in our communion. "

Im confused, from what communion do u belong to?