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Glory to Jesus Christ.

I�ve just read a forwarded message from a reader who belongs to the St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood that reports the Platina, Calif. monastery, co-founded in ROCOR by the late Fr Seraphim (Rose), has been received this month into the Serbian Church, as a bishop has visited, (re)chrismated the monks and nuns there (I don�t know if he reordained anybody � perhaps the priests were just �vested�, which is how Catholic clergy are received by economy) and issued antimensia so they can have Liturgy again.

I am happy that this group is unquestionably part of the recognized Orthodox Churches again.

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Glory to Jesus Christ in his Mercy!

I can not express how joyful this news is to Orthodox Christians who enjoy reading the writings of the Spiritual Fathers of the Eastern Church as presented by St Herman's Press. I know that Hieromonk Seraphim of blessed memory must be at peace, at last, with his little flock safely under the omophorion of a canonical Bishop and a traditional and canonical orthodox church jurisdiction.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Dear in Christ Thomas,

God Bless you!

It is with great trepidation that I respond to your, and Rusnak's messages, since I believe that there is great support for these recent moves within the body of the Church.

I think that it must be remembered that it was the leaders of Platina, in the person of Abbot Herman and the (present) Hieromonks at Platina, who asked for , and received, protection under an Hierarchical Omophorion of the Metropolitan they accepted, for over ten years. This was when NO ONE ELSE would touch them , or the Christ the Savior Brotherhood with a twenty foot pole. Under this Hierarch and Holy Synod, they actually grew and flourished in those past ten years. They did not die and wither under a false church. "Suddenly" they became attractive to others who just as "suddenly" changed from Blasting them to seeking them out. Why??!!

You might be interested to know that no one of the "canonical" jurisdictions was willing to take anyone of these groups in if Abbot Herman was "part of the package". So his "spiritual children" threw him away for a "mess of potage". Abbot Herman graciously and quite heroically "retired" so as not to hinder his "children"...he gave them their inheritance!!!

I have been a part of all this from before I care to imagine, and have been deeply troubled and hurt by all the discussion of these matters in the public forum, by people who have not been a part of it, but only see it from the "comforable" position of the "canonical" church. The Church in America is NOT the only barometer to be used to measire the Orthodox Church. The Calendar issue itself is one which several of the major Orthodox Patriarchates have taken firmn stands on. The Julian ( or Old Calendar) is followed byt the Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Russia and Serbia, to mention just a few.....as well as Mount Athos. So to call churches which follow this callendar ( in America) "uncanonical" is disingenuous, if the SCOBA churches also serve with Jerusalem, Russia and Serbia. The OCa itself as not, to date, been accepted as "canonical" by Constaninople.

These recent converts to "canonical" Orthodoxy have also thrown away ALL they have held for the past decades, by being rechrismated and in some cases re-ordained. What does that say for all the Sacraments which were celebrated in those years? DO all the babies and converts have to be rebaptized and rechrismated, because they were only "playing church" all that time? Do all the marriages need to be redone? And what about all the funerals? Where does hypocrisy really lay in these events?

This is a move to be "accepted", "respected" and " so that our children can go to church anywhere" ( a quote from a conversation I actually had ). From defenders of the Traditional Orthodox Church, the Julian Calendar and genuine Orthodox World view to the followers of "slick orthodoxy" is quite an incredible journey.


And , Thomas, if you have read any of Blessed Serahim's works, especially his works in the Orthodox Word regarding SCOBA and the OCA in particular, you would not think he is "at peace", but rather he may be "turning over in his grave". The very people his spoke out against are those to whom these peole have succumb.

I have been silent for over a year and a half, since all these machinations have begun, but I cannot remain so any longer and feel a peace. Whereever these people have gone, I pray fro Go's Blessing for them, but I cannot , by silence, give approval for their actions, nor can I sit by and listen to the applause of those who have not been part of this and who do not know the whole truth.

As I said at the beginning, I have trepidation about posting to this subject, but it is probably so arcane to our Byzantine-Catholic breothers and sisters that any further discussion might better be off-line.

unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Dear in Christ Rusnak,

God Bless you!

The Reader in question, whom you mention, is NOT a member of the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood. He was simply passing on information to which he has been acquainted. His Father( a Priest ) and he are both still very much members of the "offending" jursidiction" from which the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood and Monastery left. I know this becaue I am of the same jurisdiction...

unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Glory to Jesus Christ.

Father, bless. Thank you for your insider�s POV of what is happening. I certainly didn�t want to offend you and others of your jurisdiction or misrepresent what is happening.

ISTM if the Platina group wanted to embrace �slick Orthodoxy� they�d have turned New Calendar and joined an NCC-affiliated Orthodox �denomination�, but the Church of Serbia, as you say, is Old Calendar and may be amenable to Platina�s approach while a more �Americanized� jurisdiction may not.

Also, ISTM the logical home for the group is back in ROCOR, but perhaps there are too many lingering hard feelings for that to happen, though I did notice a recent issue of The Orthodox Word had a conciliatory-sounding obituary of Archbishop Anthony (Medvedev) of San Francisco, who of course was Platina�s bishop when it was in ROCOR. My impression of CSB/SH of AB life when I visited in 1998 was it still was virtually indistinguishable from English-language ROCOR practice. The only difference was the priests wore Celtic-style crosses.

Thanks too for the insight on Fr Herman. I feel bad for him. (I wondered why apparently he is in the Moscow Patriarchate now while his community is now Serbian. As the MP and the Church of Serbia are in communion, I suppose such isn�t really an issue.) As I mentioned above, I have been to Forestville and Chico and met Fr Herman once, when the CSB under Metropolitan Pangratios was in full swing, and I was most impressed.

I certainly see your point about gratitude, Father. I am truly sorry if your metropolitan and Church have been treated shabbily.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 12-25-2000).]

"The OCA itself as not, to date, been accepted as "canonical" by Constaninople."

Beg to differ Father. It's the autocephally of the OCA which is not recognized by Constantinople, not it's canonical status.
If what you state as fact, was true, then the OCA would not be able to be a member of SCOBA and it's priests would not be able to concelebrate with Greek priests in Greek parishes and vice versa.

Dear in Christ Patrick,

God Bless you!

Yes you are correct, I certainly mispoke with regard to the "canonical" status of the OCA I knew the reality. I must apologize for having allowed emotion to overwhelm my reason and to say something I actually know not to be so.

unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Dear in Christ Serge,

God Bless you on this Feast of St. Herman!

As I posted to Patrick, I am afraid that I did get cared more by emotion than reason in some of my previous post. While I cannot excuse myself for that I hope that it can be understood that I had not previously spoken of these issues, because I knew I could get emotional about it. Please forgive my inaccuracies in this regard!

I reread my post, and I see that I was not very clear in some parts. I was not referring to the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood in relation to "slick" chuches, but rather to the Christ the Savior Brotherhood, who in large part have been accepted by the OCA and the GOA. I would not "lump" the Serbian Church into this group altogether. I myself served in the Serbian Church in Los Angeles, under Metr, Ireney and the New Gracanica Metropolitinate, in the 80s. I also served at the Holy Cross Serbian Monastery for several years, in Castro Valley; so I know the Serbian Church.

This has all been a rather painful experience, and unfortunately not one which is unfamiliar in the American Church. Jurisdiction hopping is abberant in the Orthodox Church unless there is a case of heresy. There seems to be more of this sort of thing going on here and now, and it even affects our Byzatine Catholic brothers. There is a very real Protestantization of the Church in the past twenty or so years, with splits and arguments over canonicity, validity and jurisdiction. In the old days, even if there were two Orthodox churches in one town who did not officially speak to one another...the people did not care and visited both churches WITH the knowledge of their priests. No one was cast out as heretic or ostracized as is done today.

Oh well this is probably not a topic for this Forum, and I have stood on my spaobox far too long already.

unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Dear Reverend Father Kyrill,

Father Bless!

I Hope that you are having a blessed St. Herman's Day!

I am sorry that my previous post offended you or hurt you in any manner, please forgive me. I was unaware that The St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood of Platina was under any Bishop's omophorion. I wrote the brotherhood several times over the past years and they always declined to note who they were under after they left ROCOR. This is also noteable on a "M/?" note on several websites that list the jurisdiction of Orthodox Monsteries in America --- these websites do denote Monasteries under HOCNA and His Grace Metropolitan Pangratios, as well as, other Old Calendar jurisdictions not in SCOBA.

I was pleased that The St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood were able to come under the omiphorion of a canonically recognized Old Calendar Church, like the Church of Serbia. It was that to which I was referring to when I spoke of Father Seraphim of Blessed Memory being able to rest peacefully after over a decade of turmoil within and without the brotherhood. I have prayed for many years that the St Herman Brotherhood be able to find a spiritual home, as I was unaware they were under anyone's omiphorion.

As to the Christ the Saviour Brotherhood, I know very little as they are not active in my area and therefore I am perhaps out of the politics of that arena of the Orthodox Church. As to other Orthodox jurisdictions, I am not worthy to judge their connection within the Holy Orthodox Church save through their connection to the Historical Patriarchates and Bishoprics of the Orthodox Church--- I often tend to look at the individual Parish when I visit one---I look for traditional Orthodox practices, the amount of Love and charity they exhibit in their walk with Christ, and their obedience to the Historic Tradition of Orthodoxy. I have found wonderful parishes in almost all of the jurisdictions I have visited and felt the love of Christ in these communities. As I have not come in contact with anything in my state except new calendar and a few small old calendar churches in communion with the historic patriarchates, I have not had the need to study the claims of every Orthodox jurisdiction located in the United States.

I remain your unworthy brother in Christ,
Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 12-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 12-25-2000).]

I can certainly understand the pain that Fr. Kyrill has expressed in his posts. Someone has posted elsewhere the perspective that some posters on this board, Fr. Kyrill and myself included, have been very forthright in the perspective that the Gospel command to love one another takes primacy over any other element of the elements of the believing of the community.

As the child of a Greek Orthodox mother and a Roman Catholic father (RIP), I've lived in both church communities since I arrived on this earth many years ago and I've personally experienced the craziness that can occur when well-intentioned folks get into discussions about religion. Perhaps because of this, I've come to the very practical conclusion that the elemental precepts of the Gospel are the only things that really matter. Christ's mandate to love God and to love one another is the only thing that can 'save' one from the lunacy of human society.

I know that there are those who would faint dead away if one were not to defend holy Orthodoxy/Catholicity as the sole element of salvation. But for me, who --as a 30 year Byzantine Catholic-- has lived with the slings and arrows of the 'righteous', I've come to focus more and more on the Gospel parable of the apostles who were sent to towns and villages with the message of peace. And who were told that if the message of peace were not accepted, to shake the dust from their sandals and move on.

Fortunately for me, everywhere I've gone-- both Catholic (East and West) and Orthodox, I've encountered wonderful people who have welcomed me with a smile and a handshake. (Only once have I been 'escorted' out because I wasn't a possessor of the right ID card.)

I truly believe and acknowledge that our Byzantine/Constantinopolitan spiritual pathway and discipline is the best pathway to follow if one wishes to come to God. But I am not willing to acknowledge that the administrative connections are critical to salvation. I've got Pope John Paul II and the Vatican Council as well as various Orthodox synods to back me up on this. It's the prayer, the almsgiving, the kindness and disciplined spiritual life that brings one to God. It doesn't matter to me if you think today is December 28 or December 15 or July 4th or if you think that it's important to wear blue vestments on August 15. For me, the most important thing is the love in your heart.

I know that there are some who think that this is the equivalent of Rodney King's "can't we all get along", but Christian witness is MUCH deeper than a mere platitude. Our Roman brothers and sisters celebrate their way; our Armenian brethren do their thing; the Ethiopians have their own modified Coptic tradition; and we Byzantines do our pre-Medieval Constantinopolitan thing. Each pathway/lifestyle is valid; none is more or less worthy than another as long as it serves to bring the individual soul to God.

For us Christians, it is not ours to judge; that is God's job. For us, we are to seek out people of good-will and to work with them to fulfill God's command. If they're too busy worrying about the calendar or leavened/unleavened bread, or living/non-living languages, then let them be. Move on. There are many others who are waiting, and willing to work with others who are concerned about feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty.

I do NOT denigrate or reject our Byzantine Christian theology and philosophy. But the reality of this Byzantine approach is what my forebears have taught me: do your best to be kind. Watch out for the envious; they'll try to steal what you have. Watch out for those who would divert your love from your spouse or family. Watch out for those who would have you worship anyone/thing but God.

Laws are laws; customs are customs; but the reality of living kindly and rightly is what we learn from prayer AND the example of our forebears and model contemporaries. You'll learn what is REALLY important.

ROCOR, Serbian Canonical, GOA, OCA, Ruthenian, etc. Yeah, the lineage is important --sort of-- but the Gospel is numero uno. If it's not, then I think there's a problem, because on would be worrying about secondary issues, not the Gospel.

So again, as a benchmark for the Gospel: "what have y'all done for the poor lately?", not what day is it or how long is your beard. Or even worse, whom have you rejected today because of the community he belongs to.

Reject whatever is superficial and divides us; accept whomever confesses Christ and is willing to work with you to fulfil the mandates of the Gospel. Judge the man; not the group he belongs to.

Blessings!

(PS. Please remember my mother in your prayers. She's been doing somewhat poorly lately. Thanks.)


[This message has been edited by Dr John (edited 12-27-2000).]

Dear In Christ:

Fr. Kyrill might not be that much off the mark as regards the OCA. Remember that in June when Archbishop Stylianos of Australia came to the Catholic-Orthodox dialouge he told Metropolitan Theodosios to leave since he wasn't "canonical."

anastasios

Fr. Kyrill might not be that much off the mark as regards the OCA. Remember that in June when Archbishop Stylianos of Australia came to the Catholic-Orthodox dialouge he told Metropolitan Theodosios to leave since he wasn't "canonical."

=============================================

He wasn't objecting to the canonical status of the OCA but to it's autocephally (sp?). As far as he was concerned there was no need for the highest ranking Bishop of the OCA to be there. Since, in his opinion, the OCA was part of the Moscow Patriarchate and thus already had representatives present.
If the the canonical status of the OCA wasn't recognized, then the OCA could not be part of SCOBA, and could not con celebrate with Greek Orthodox priests which is done all the time. In fact, today is the feast of St Stephen. Since it is the name sake of our Cathedral, a Liturgy served and presided over by the 'Eastern clergy Association' of Philadelphia. All the Orthodox priests in the area who are members con celebrated uncluding the Greeks. If the OCA was not considered canonical this could not have taken place.

Bob

Bob --

Thanks for trying to add clarity to this often confused issue.

As I understand it, the majority of the Orthodox Churches do not recognize Moscow's Tomos of Autocephaly granted to the OCA in 1970 -- that is, the majority of the Orthodox Churches do not accept that this action by the Moscow Patriarchate was valid, or at least have questions concerning its validity. As a result, those Orthodox Churches who have questions about the validity of the 1970 Tomos of Autocephaly consider that OCA today is exactly where it was before that Tomos -- namely, the American Metropolia of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Sometimes people characterize this as a "canonical" dispute because the difference of opinion about OCA's autocephalous status relates to the interpretation of a first millenium canon regarding the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople over the lands of the barbarians (read: America) -- the "canonical" point raised by Istanbul when they refused to accept Moscow's power to grant OCA autocephaly. Moscow countered with its own theory that, in essence, it retained *all* jurisdiction over American Orthodox because it was the mission church in North America (and, in fact, it is factually true that there were not multiple Orthodox jurisdictions in North America before the Russian Revolution, but everyone was subject to the Russian Missionary Diocese), and that the subsequent arrival in North America of bishops of other jurisdictions following the Russian Revolution was itself uncanonical (because it violated the one bishop per city canon), and that therefore (1) Moscow was the rightful grantor of autocephaly, since it had all jurisdiction in North America and (2) the other Orthodox Bishops in North America are, at best, canonically irregular and that therefore (3) in theory at least, no other Patriarchate has the right to exercise canonical jurisdiction in North America.

In my opinion, this is really another installment in the Moscow v. Constantinople tug-of-war right now in the Orthodox Church. There is a real difference of opinion in Orthodoxy regarding the extent of Constantinople's power -- and Moscow, being the largest Patriarchate by far, seems to be most often clashing with Constantinople over these kinds of jurisdictional issues. The issue regarding the OCA is another chapter in this saga. A useful resource on the background to this issue is an excellent, probing essay by Fr. Alexander Schmemann, of blessed memory, entitled "A Meaningful Storm" reprinted in "Church, World, Mission".

However, in spite of the canonical hoo-hah (and there's a lot of that to go around here in North America, because the whole situation here is in violation of the canons) noone has ever asserted that the OCA is "uncanonical" in the sense that it is not in communion with Constantinople and the other Orthodox Churches (which is also a misuse of the word "canonical", but that misuse is a rough approximation of the current predominant use of the term, I think) -- and, in fact, as Bob has pointed out, OCA priests and priests of other jurisdictions here (as well as visitors from overseas jurisdictions) concelebrate liturgies with some regularity, evidencing their full communion with each other.

So, while we have what can be characterized as a difference of opinion based on "canons", noone is asserting that OCA is "uncanonical" (as that word is typically used today), but rather that it is simply not autocephalous and is instead the North American Metropolia of the ROC.

Brendan

Say what?

"I've gone back to old Constantinople.......
I'm glad to be back in old Constantinople..
.......Lah....Lah....Lah....Lah............
In old Constantinople!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

( The younger participants won't understand this, but the older ones will. I'm just kidding, but.....Holy Pasticho....what a mess!)

Brendan:

You just about covered it! What it all narrows down to is politics and necessity. The church in America is the 'cash cow' for the EP and he is not about to give it up. If he doesn't move from Istanbul the existence of the Ecumenical Patriarchate will become extinct within the next fifty years or so. According to Turkish law the Ecumenical Patriarch has to be A NAURALIZED TURKISH CITIZEN. And he cannot be consecrated unless he is approved by the Turkish (Moselm) government. At the present time there are only about 2500 naturalized Greek Orthodox Turkish citizens left in Turkey. Most are in their 60's, 70's, or 80's. Which means as long as the EP chooses to remain in Istanbul, the next EP will have to be chosen from the above. Not very good pickin's..is it? All this could be avoided if he were to leave Istanbul and set himself up on Greek territory. But instead he choses to stay and pretend things are as they were centuries ago. The Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch no longer resides in Antioch. The EP has convinced the west that he is the 'spiritual leader of the worlds Orthodox' (which he ain't). At any council he would only have one vote the same as the rest of the Orthodox Bishops who were present.
Now that communism is gone he feels threatened by the Moscow Patriarchate because of it's size. So he interferes in Estonia and now Ukraine. If he were to proclaim the Ukrainian Orthodox Church autocephalus then the Moscow Patriarchate would no longer be the largest Orthodox Church in the world. It would now be the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who would be his chief supporter and defender. Moscow as the so called 'third Rome' would cease to exist as a threat. So you see, it's all politics.

Bob