www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Loosing faith in BCs

Dear Friends of the message boards,
I am currently looking at several different parishes in the area that I might join.I am having to many problems with the Byzantine Catholic church that I attend.With the Rosery replacing all the hours, matins and vespers.The Heretical Father Gobie devotions.Omitions of antiphons,tropars,kondaks.the loss of all the incense.
So my question is I have looked at three different parishes and like the old calender Greek Orthodox because they are very traditional.But the New Calender guys are to but they are part of the WCC and I cant have that.The one that I havent talked very much to is the ROCOR and I think that they might be very traditional. What should I do? I have looked at all sides and the grass is greener on theirs.With all of these Uniates in the BC church I dont think that I can continue to fight for the truth of our Orthodox roots.

I would be very careful with groups like HOCNA and this split-off from ROCOR like ROCIE. They have cut themselves off from the entire Orthodox world and tend to seem themselves as a "remnant" which is not Orthodox thinking.

C4C,
Who is the Heretical Father Gobie? Sounds a little like a Star Wars character.
Thanks,
Sam

Slava Isusu Christu!

You are obviously in need of the riches of our tradition..., but remember that each Eastern Catholic parish is is emplementing that tradition at different levels according to pastoral issues.

There is no reason that you can't strive for tradition in your Eastern Catholic parish. The issue with running is that it seems to never end.
There is no perfect Eastern Church and you will never find one.

May God guide you in your jouney.

In Christ,


Robert

Thank you Brother Robert,
I know that I should stay and fight it out but I Know that I am a minority in my church and the traditional people are not the ones paying the bills.After 15 years in the Military some things will never change even if there are rules aginst them.This Father Gobie stuff is something that the Roman people brought over and I really dont know anything about it.I know that the Bishop said that His teachings will not be used in our Eparchy and that is enough for me.

Just to let you know, the RC bishops, have also spoken against Fr. Gobie and have said that his alleged apparitions do not have the approval of the Church. Not only the BC's, but the RC's in your parish as well need to be spoken to about this. As a former RC, I am not sure how this works in the Eastern Churches, but if talking to your pastor hasn't done anything, have you tried your Bishop? I still have a problem understanding why some RC's, when they come to the East, insist on taking along all their devotions and traditions and forcing them on others. What attracted me to the Byzantine Church was the Spirituality...if I had wanted a spirituality that included statues, kneelers and rosaries, I would have stayed in the West.
Vie

Dear Brother,

Yes, I am familiar with Fr. Gobie's Marian Movement of Priests, www.mmp-usa.net [mmp-usa.net] ,and the Luisa Piccareta, www.divinewill.org [divinewill.org] ,Divine Will Stuff. I am also aware that your parish has some people who promote both the MMP and Divine Will as per a Latin friend, John Cordero, who used to attend your parish.

It is rather unfortunate that some folks, either Latins or otherwise, who attend our parishes cannot deign to learn the all-sufficiency of the Byzantine Tradition in regard to the mystical/moral life and wish to have a hybrid which neither is a testimony to our Church or a sign of wholeness in the eyes of the Orthodox.

It is fine to believe in Pope John Paul's theology of the body: http://www.ccli.org/marriage/west.shtml ,and seek approved matter for one's private spiritual life from the Latin perview, BUT it is not appropriate to incorporate it into the parish setting of an Eastern Catholic Church. The Rosary has for hundreds of years in Eastern Catholic Churches prefixed the Divine Liturgy and so in some parishes this is just the standard until they are weaned away into an appreciate of the Divine Praises, but to propogate the MMP and Luisa Piccaretta's Divine Will nonsense in a Byzantine Catholic parish is an atrocity which merits a strong letter to His Grace WILLIAM with attached signatures including the support of the priest. If the people who hold the financial pull in the parish are just holding our until the Latin Church restores it's traditions then kindly ask them if they would like to approach the Priestly Society of Saint Peter to pay for and build a chapel and let those who desire our tradition in it's completeness and integrity alone. Rosary before Divine Liturgy is tolerable pastorally for a time, but the rest of that stuff needs to go.

Yours in the Panagia,


Robert

Brother,

For your reference here are some links that may help you regarding this mmp and Divine Will stuff:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/frgobbi/frgobbi.html

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/divinewi/divinewi.html

That should be a good start from an apolegetics standpoint.

God has given you a mission to help restore our venerable Eastern Tradition...so get to it.

And remember latinization is not just an Eastern Catholic problem it is also an Orthodox one. So just grow where you are planted and be faithful.

Blessings,


Robert

Hello C4C,

The priest allowing Latinization (rosary, station of the cross, etc) is the DIRECT disobedience to the Pope! If the priest is truly Catholic then he MUST obey the Pope.

The Pope ordered (not asked) the Eastern Churches to restore true heritage, identity, traditions, etc.

You can bring a copy of Orientale Lumen to your priest and you can find few more resources on the internet where the Pope supports the restoration of the Eastern Churches.

Latinization is a truly disgusting phenomenon.

In our Church...the ONLY Latization that we have...is kneeling...I mean...we have some people to continue standing all the time.

I have told many of my Byzantine friends...mostly Ruthenians...about our church in Wichita, KS...you know...the things we do...how we do it...etc...and they're all like "BOY YOU GUYS ARE SOOOO ORTHODOX!" Ha.

I take that compliment very highly and it made me proud of our church. Makes me so much more thankful and appreciative. I'm blessed to have Fr. Peter as our priest.

So, C4C, stay steadfast to the Byzantine traditions, and encourage your priest do to the same. Prayers would work well. Also you can do some grassroot education of your own...you know...like talk to people after Liturgy...and you can strike up a conversation...like "Hey...guess what I read the other day...this good book... blah blah" or..."I read on the internet about...blah blah." Then...you know..conversations..sharing your faith, your thoughts and hopes...with people...is a good way to educate the folks...about restoring our traditions.

But anyway, as Pope John Paul II said, "We MUST be Orthodox in Faith and Catholic in Love."

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

C4C,

First, you need to do a logical assessment of the situation and be very careful not to lead people to believe something different than what is actually occurring.

Unfortunately, most Byzantine Catholic parishes do not have a full celebration of Vespers, Matins and the Hours. For most parishes, it is a process of restoring these services one at a time over several years. Still, the vast majority of parishes do not have a weekly celebration of these Divine Services.

Are you suggesting that these services were the norm in your parish and that your current pastor is removing them and mandating the rosary in their places? If your parish has had the custom of celebrating these services and your pastor is purposefully removing them then you need to first discuss the situation with your pastor and, if that fails, you need to bring it to the attention of your bishop and ask for his direction.

If Vespers, Matins and the Hours have not been the norm in your parish, it is entirely possible that your priest has not restored these services because he has no one to sing them. Ask him, find out why. If he is a bi-ritual priest he may just not be familiar enough with these services to understand their importance to our liturgical life.

Keep in mind that the average Orthodox parish in the United States does not celebrate the fullness of the liturgical cycle. Of the approximately dozen Orthodox parishes within an hour�s drive of where I live, some only celebrate the Sunday Divine Liturgy. Several have Great Vespers on Saturday evening, a couple have Matins on Sunday morning and only 3 have the Vigil (Vespers & Matins). Even at the OCA Cathedral the Vigil is greatly abbreviated. Make sure that the goal you are seeking is something that is realistic on a parish level and not an imposition of the fullness of the Divine Services one expects in a monastery.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Do none of the OCA parishes celebrate the 3rd and 6th hour in the morning before the Liturgy? Nor the 9th before pre-sanctified?

I was at the DC OCA cathedral less than a month ago for Vigil. It was celebrated in a more abbreviated way than is done here but I would not say "greatly abbreviated" as you have. I would venture to say that it fits the "goal you are seeking ... that is realistic on a parish level" yet not what "one expects in a monastery." I would really like to hear how it did not meet your expectations.

Tony

Dear spdundas,

You are indeed. But, Fr. Peter being of Orthodox roots, educated in an Orthodox seminary, ordained as an Orthodox priest and having served as a pastor of an Orthodox parish, is very different from most (almost all) BC pastors.

He is a treasure, but very much the anomaly.

Tony

Tony,

Thanks for the post.

Certainly, there are OCA parishes that celebrate the hours prior to the Divine Liturgy. I never suggested otherwise.

My point to C4C is to be realistic in his expectations. If the parish he belongs to does not currently celebrate these services then it is rather unrealistic to expect the parish to suddenly embrace a complete liturgical life overnight, especially when these services are not the norm in most Orthodox parishes. The reintroduction of these services is best accomplished over several years so that the parish becomes comfortable with and embraces each service before adding something new.

Regarding the Vigil at St. Nicholas Cathedral, my experience is that the abbreviations are most reasonable. I did not suggest otherwise. Again, my point was that one should not expect parish liturgical life to mimic monastic liturgical life. Such an expectation is, in my opinion, very unrealistic and anyone who holds that expectation will be disappointed.

Admin

Tony, even in Wichita they do not have the Hours before the Liturgy. I know because I offered to do them there once there and was turned down. In Wichita they also do not have Divine Liturgy on a weekly or regular basis, usually a couple of times per month. Again, I know this because Wichita people sometimes make the long trip to one parish I assist at. I certainly do not say this to detract from Father Peter who is a wonderful man but to point out the reality of practice there.

You are correct that the practice of the Hours is an anomaly in Greek Catholic parishes.

I would say more and more Orthodox churches are thankfully regaining this practice as time goes on. But a smattering of Greek Catholic parishes are also picking this up slowly. The new Ukrainian Catholic English pew books will have the Hours with directions for a reader to do those before the Divine Liturgy. I have made the draft version of that available to several on this Forum.

I hope this practice extends because not only do the Hours contain some wonderful theology and prayer, but it creates an atmosphere of peace sanctity, even if one reader is singing them, and people are less likely to talk and be frivolous.

I like the idea of having one reader do them for several reasons, but as a practical one when people are coming into church it gives them an opportunity to collect themselves spiritually, and not have to worry about singing or being right in the middle of a service when they are trying to get themselves and/or kids settled, finding the right book, finding the right page, etc. It also discourages Latin devotions which have come to take over before Liturgy in some of our parishes.

As a catechetical tool it also gives the kids a chance to be taught how to sing recto tono/reader's tone and begin their future career as readers and cantors. My 13-year old has done the Hours before liturgy on his own more than once.

We receive bulletins on occasion from our old parish in Gilbert, Arizona: St Thomas Byzantine Catholic. The most recent state that starting in September they will have the Third Hour before Liturgy. A most positive step forward!

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com