www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Jennifer and all who are upset...

I think we need to look for a simple understanding of the truth, rather than getting entangled in arguments. Here are some points that might be good for starting a healthy discussion:

"What has been the united faith and understanding of the Church (East and West) about the primacy of Peter from the beginning?"

"Has there ever been any agreement?"

If so:

"In what ways have the Eastern and Western Churches agreed on this point?"

"Did the Churches of the East ever agree totally with the Papacy as understood by the West?"

"Can we bridge the divide?"

If so, how?

Some of us here are Roman Catholic, Some are Orthodox, Some are Eastern Catholic, Some are Protestants, Some have converted (or are in the process of converting)from one Church to another. Some, like Jennifer, are in a period of discerment or change. We are going to have various answers to the questions listed above...

What are our motives in joining this discussion?

Seeking understanding?
Listening to others thoughtfully?
Converting the "other side?"
Upset?
Confusion?
Anger?
Unity in Christ?

Jesus prayed that all would be one...we have to look at the fact that we are all seeking to follow Christ...and we have to want unity too....

Please...let's not argue hurtfully, but rather constructively work through our differences, and if necessary, just agree to disagree on some points while working on others....

I am so afraid I have started a whirlwind, hurricane, fire, tornado mix :rolleyes:

From one who longs for a day when all Christians will know the depths of true Unity in Christ

Unity in Christ,
Thanks for the wonderful post.
However I think a lot dont want to even recognize the possibility that the East and West can live together on a common understanding. They simply want to reject the Papacy pure and simple.
Which is of course a tragedy.
Stephanos I
But here's to the attempt.

I think there is agreement between east and west that Rome has a primacy and is "first among equals." Most Orthodox don't deny that.

I also think that there is agreement between Orthodox and some Roman Catholics that the role of the papacy developed, meaning that it did not exist in its present form in the first millenium of the Church.

As for why I came to this forum (while I'm sure I won't be believed), I came here to learn.

I think that we as catholics (little "c") should rejoin that the Churches of the East and West have survived for two thousand years and maintained the catholic faith.

I think that many ignore that fact and instead look for reasons to divide us.

Unity and all members

I do not like to see the way we are being torn apart at the moment.

This is a Board , where in the past we have respected each other's views - where is that respect now ?

This is a Board where in the past we have shown tolerance to other posters - and they in their turn have been tolerant of our beiiefs - where is that tolerance now ?

This is a Board where we learn from one another - and now we are defending our views.

This is a Board where we support each other in times of need - and we still will - even though we are getting bashed - right left and centre.

Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of Thy faithful, and enkindle in them the Fire of Thy Love.

R. Send forth Thy Spirit, and they shall be created;

V. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray.

O God, Who by the Light of the Holy Spirit didst instruct the hearts of Thy faithful, grant us in that same Spirit to be truly wise and ever to rejoice in His consolations, through Christ our Lord. Ame


Anhelyna

May I say with my very limited Latin:

"Omnia possibilia sunt credenti"
"Everything is possible for anyone who has faith"

james, trying to tap the faith & traditions taught to me years ago...with loving guidance and instruction from my Eastern brethern.

Amen, Anhelyna. We do want peace...so far this thread seems pretty peaceable, so hopefully that will continue

I don't have a reason to doubt that, Jennifer And by the way, I don't think I ever said "Welcome to the forum!"

Sarah--UIC

Dear Father Stephanos,

If you are stating that all who disagree with the Papacy as it is today are simply opposed to the Papacy in any form, I disagree.

I really think that the function of the Papacy can be discussed in a scholarly manner, if the parties can refrain from condemning each other over their views.

I am willing to try, although my knowledge is somewhat limited.

Do we truly want a return to the first millennium church? What exactly does that mean? I think it means different things to different people. Since there can only be one answer, if there are two opinions on the subject either one is wrong or both are wrong.

On this Eastern board it should be easy to discuss these things, the problem I have always had in the past is some person or other pulling out Ludvig Ott and casting De Fides around the room instead of actually wanting to discuss the ideas on their own merits.

I share a lot of the same concerns Jennifer has expressed, although I do not focus on the Infallibility Dogma as much as the Universal Jurisdiction Dogma, which is basically intertwined with it. In a nutshell, the Latin church asserts that the authority of all bishops and priests ultimately derives from the Papacy and for any person who disagrees �Let them be Anathema�.

It is one thing to say that a Patriarch has independent ability to function within his own church and quite another to say that the Holy See grants this ability to function.

If the Latin church is simply unwilling to consider modifying their understanding of these Dogmas then I shouldn�t be surprised that ecumenical dialog makes little to no progress. In much the same manner, we will not make much progress either.

In Christ,
Michael

LORD HAVE MERCY!!!

*sigh*

May the Peace of Christ be yours!

Until then ... I think I'm going to take a break from this forum!

It seems to me that the Balamand agreement is an implicit concession by Rome that belief in the papal dogmas isn't necessary for salvation.

Orthodox Christians can receive communion in Catholic Churches without renouncing the sin of schism or heresy.

Traditionalist Roman Catholics are shocked when they hear about Balamand. Some actually accuse Rome of falling into heresy.
If belief in papal infallibility is absolutely necessary for salvation then why has the Catholic Church agreed not to evangelize to Orthodox Christians?

Therefore it seems to me that Rome has taken steps in the right direction. But the problem is that Rome's position is distrusted by conservative and traditional Catholics so it's uncertain whether it will survive this pope's term.

I hear constantly how the pope has reached out by the Orthodox won't listen. I think rank and file RCs are losing patience. Unfortunately they don't understand the bloody history of eastern Europe so they put the hostility of the Russians and Greeks into proper perspective.

I'm going to come out and admit it, I'm a huge liberal indifferentist. I think the Catholic Church "encompasses" both the Churches in communion with Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches (I'm not sure about the Oriental Orthodox). We all have the Eucharist, therefore we're all the Church.

I think the Latin Church wouldn't agree here....I don't think we do a lot of saying: "Let them be Anathema" to people who disagree with us these days....

I think we try to make friends instead, and we say we are sorry for past hurts, and let's all work together....

So as someone from the Latin Church, I just want to say...let's not assume the worst, but give this kind of conversation a fresh try....

UIC

I wouldn't put it that way exactly, but I think you are on to something, Jennifer.

The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, and the fact that we all have it is really something to rejoice in. It reminds us that while we may not be in full understanding with each other, we do share in the same body of Christ.

In the unity that comes in sharing in the one body of Christ, we can pray hard from our Catholic and Orthodox Churches that Christ will make us all one in himself. Since all who are in Christ are one body, it shouldn't be too hard.....

We can take whatever steps we know how toward unity, and we can pray even more and try to understand what the papacy should mean in our lives....

UIC

Dear Jennifer, Esq.

My final post on what you say about "schism and heresy."

When did the RC Church EVER consider the Orthodox to be heretics?

And the term "schism" hasn't been applied to the Orthodox for almost half a century.

This kind of talk on your part is what truly confuses the heck out of me.

You sound like an ultramontanist RC (you deny you are, however, and say I don't understand you).

But the circumstantial evidence you bring forward, counselor, is really . . . telling!

Your positions are truly all over the place.

Even those who write to support you appear not to have fully understood them.

Michelle, I'm coming to join you on that break from the Forum now!!

Alex

My primary reason for coming here was to figure out if I could be "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

I already made the decision to be 'eastern.' I have doubts about ultramontanism. I've read that Eastern Catholics were trying to bring about the first millenium Church. Rome will have to give up something and the Orthodox will have to cede some authority over to Rome. The idea being that the Eastern Catholics are the ones who show both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics that it's possible to be in communion with Rome without being overly 'papal.'

What I'm coming to believe is that some Eastern Catholics completely misunderstand how Rome understands what it means it means to be in communion with Rome. Alex's post is a perfect example of this kind of 'delusion.'

First, Rome has said that the Orthodox are heretics. Rome no longer says this but individual Roman Catholics (even priests and bishops) still say this today.

Second, Rome believes that the Orthodox are in a 'less than perfect' communion with Rome. However, most Roman Catholics believe that the Orthodox are in schism.

One more thing, I sent my old pastor some of the posts from this board, including several of Alex's posts. He's conservative RC. He very clearly told me that what some people, especially Alex, say about the pope is not what the Catholic Church teaches about the pope.

If we're going to discuss the papacy then we need to be honest about what the Catholic Church really teaches about the pope and not engage in wishful thinking that it believes what we wish it believed.