www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Pope Innocent III on the sack of Constantinople

To Baldwin, Count of Flanders and Hainault

You took upon yourselves the duty of delivering the Holy Land from the Infidel. You were forbidden under pain of excommunication from attacking any Christian lands, unless they refused you passage or would not help you (and even then you were to do nothing contrary to the wishes of my legate). You had no claims or pretensions to the lands of Greece. You were under the most solemn vows of Our Lord-and yet you have totally disregarded these vows. It was not against the Infidel but against Christians that you drew your sword. It was not Jerusalem that you captured but Constantinople. It was not heavenly riches upon which your minds were set, but earthly ones. But far and above all of this, nothing has been sacred to you-neither age nor sex. In the eyes of the whole world you have abandoned yourselves to debauchery, adultery and prostitution. You have not only violated married women and widows, but even women and virgins whose lives were dedicated to Christ. You have looted not only the treasures of the Emperor and of citizens both rich and poor, but have despoiled the very sanctuaries of God's Church. You have broken into holy places, stolen the sacred objects of altars-even including crucifixes-and you have pillaged innumerable images and relics of the Saints. It is hardly surprising that the Greek Church, beaten down though it is, rejects any obedience to the Apostolic See. It is hardly surprising that it sees in all Latins no more than treachery and the works of the Devil, and regards all of them as curs.

To Doge Enrico Dandola of Venice

"It was you who deliberately deflected a crusading army designed to make war upon the Saracens. You despised my legate and treated my excommunication of you with contempt. You have broken your Christian vows, and have despoiled the churches and their treasures. Tell me, if you can, how you can ever redeem yourselves-you who have turned aside a Christian army destined for the Holy Land ? With this great and powerful army not only Jerusalem but even part of Babylon might have been captured. The proof of this is that an army which could so easily take Greece and Constantinople could equally well have captured Alexandria and the Holy Land from the Infidels."

Cool.

Have any references?

Logos Teen

Dear Lawerence,

Thanks. That was a good one! I've put it in my library for future reference!

In Christ,
Andrew

Logos Teen

The quotes are from "The Sundered Cross" by Ernle Bradford. Also, I noticed that in my haste I spelled Dandolo as Dandola.

Dear Lawrence,

I read the above, little known letter to the crusaders, in the book by Warren H.Carroll, the Catholic (convert) historian.

I got it out into the Greek Orthodox world around the time of the visit of the Holy Father to Greece. It squelched the myth that Pope Innocent III SANCTIONED ( ) the Crusaders to sack Constantinople! Glory be to God that it did! Ofcourse, the Holy Father's apology for the 'actions' of Catholics in history didn't hurt either!

With love in Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

It is wonderful that you have read Dr. Carroll's account of the sacrilege of 1204.

Why do you think it is that so many Orthodox view 1204 as part of some vast Papal policy to subjugate the Christian East? That view came up big time when we had our crusade thread a few months ago.

Moreover, Enrico Dandolo was blinded by the Imperial Gov't of Constantinople when he was a young man. He was being held as a diplomatic hostage when he was tortured and his eyes were burned out. That, and the two separate massacres of Venetians in Constantinople toward the end of the 12th century, perhaps show that 1204 was not an unprovoked or isolated incident (of course not a justified one either).

Forgiveness is what we need now. And realism. It is unrealistic to perpetuate the victim complex that "the papacy has always targeted the East for conquest." It was very sad to see many of the clergy in Greece supporting this view around the time of the Pope's visit. Thank you Alice for getting the message of forgiveness out there!

LatinTrad

Dear Latin Trad,

You are welcome! It was the only honest, therefore Christian, thing to do!

I know of the historical situation which you speak, (and of others), and for those who try to be objective, the same conclusion is to be reached: perhaps not all in history between East and West was unprovoked. To provoke, and then retreat and sulk your 'innocent' fate from the provocation, is a psychological phenomenon which is all too common place.

In any case, what is needed is 'purification of memory' which the Holy Father so brilliantly and eloquently (he never ceases to amaze me in this department!) suggested.

God bless you, and be assured that I will continue to set forth honesty and objectivity as best I can.

With much love in Christ our Lord,
Alice

Dear Alice:

Please allow me to join Breandan (LatinTrad) in expressing appreciation for an "enlightened" view displayed by an Orthodox like you.

I always felt there is something that differentiates the Greek Orthodox from the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy!

Certainly, there were atrocities committed by both sides, but perhaps more grievous on our part. However, at this juncture in our common heritage "forgiveness and purification of memory" should become our mutual concern as it will redound to our united Christian witness.

May the peace of the Lord be with you always!

Amado

PS: I am equally delighted that 2 New Yorkers can come into an agreement once in a while!

Dear Friends,

There is no doubt that Pope Innocent III (who also taught, by the way, the "correct" way of making the Sign of the Cross, that is, with three fingers and moving to the right first) opposed the Sack of Constantinople.

But this gives little consolation to the Orthodox in history or today.

The fact is the Pope made "learned to live with it" and Rome accepted the religious plunder of Constantinople notwithstanding.

As it has before, Rome said one thing but its subsequent actions did not reflect the convictions evidenced in its words.

Alex

Friends-

I read somewhere that one of the subsequent Popes forbade on pain of excommunication the "Emperor" of the so-called "Latin Empire" from attacking Nicea. Is this true, and can anyone fill in more details?

Lawrence,

I mourned the sack of Constantinople. Pope Innocent III words help to heal. Thank you.

Didn't Pope John Paul II ask forgiveness for Latins for the sins of sacking Constantinople?

Paul

Dear Paul,

I think we should put the Sack of Constantinople in some perspective - apart from papal apologies long after the fact.

(Pope Innocent III, for all his words, was perceived as an enemy of Orthodoxy - no one in the East was prepared to trust a Roman Pope after 1204).

The Sack was more than just a military attack on Constantinople.

It, in fact, and not the excommunications of 1054, solidified and made final the break between East and West.

It matters not, as well, that Easterners murdered Latins in similar attacks.

The Latin attack on Constantinople could ONLY have been done by those who were, in the eyes of the victims, not only "not in communion with them" but unChristian scoundrels.

For the Orthodox, the Sack of Constantinople could very well have occurred last year - it would have had the same effect.

As to how to heal those memories . . . I don't know.

A simple "Hey, we're sorry" won't do it.

This past Christmas, I offended both my wife and the Administrator here.

My saying "Sorry" didn't do it - both canonically penanced me - my wife longer than the Administrator.

And even to this day, I know that both are disappointed in me and consider my actions toward them as being most vicious and unChristian.

Healing takes a long time.

In the case of at least one of the above, things probably will never be the same.

Alex

You're too hard on yourself, Alex.

Logos Teen

Dear Alex,

*************************************************
quote by Alex:
A simple "Hey, we're sorry" won't do it.
*************************************************

What you say is true for me, especially if the offense is grave.

I would add that reparation is also needed to heal an offense. We can, one person, one opportunity at a time, be kind and a good example to those we offend. A good confessor can start us on the road of reparation.

You are right healing takes time. We humans aren't very good at waiting.

Just some thoughts.

Paul

Dear Paul,

After reading the thread about the EP and the Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate, all I can say is that His All-Holiness should remember that the Eastern Slavs attacked the City of Constantine themselves a few times before the Sack.

If you rile the Ukies enough, they just might try again . . .

Alex