www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why I feel inferior to Greek Orthodox

A few days ago I was having a coffee with some of my Greek Orthodox friends. With the bill C-48 on same sex marriage in the news just about everyday, the topic of conversation turned towards religion.
I admitted to them that as a Latin Catholic I felt somewhat inferior to them in matters of Faith, Liturgy and Tradition, in that they have maintained orthodoxy from the beginning and have never strayed.
The ironic part about the conversation is that 2 out of the 4 GO's felt the same inferiority to the Catholic Church, for reasons that the Catholic faithful population is so large.
I then went on to explain to them how I felt their Tradition and Liturgy are timeless and that is what makes them so attractive. Some of them commented on how they felt the Orthodox Church needs to come out of the dark ages. The conversation continued with me, a Latin Catholic evangelizing my Eastern Orthodox friends on how they should really appreciate their Church and what it has maintained. It was a very interesting discussion. They were shocked to hear that I knew so much (partly due to my membership on this forum) about the Orthodox faith and their Traditions.


Brad

Brad,

I've noticed much self loathing in all traditions. These self loathers are usually balanced off by self promoters. Maybe Freud is half correct when he said that religion is a universal obsessional neurosis.

More seriously, I do believe that the liturgy should be in the vernacular but that the NO or at least the way it is used is a big mistake. Therefore, I believe that those Orthodox who have refused to translate the liturgy are wrong and the RCs who have foisted a less than excellent liturgy upon the people are wrong. I believe the Eastern Catholics once again have it right.

Dan L

You're not the only person who feels this way about the Orthodox: namely, that they have preserved correct belief and liturgy and tradition.

I am amazed by what you reported, namely, that some Orthodox are envious of Roman Catholics for their size and for coming "out of the dark ages." Yes, I have heard at least one Orthodox person suggest that there should be women priests. But, that person is liberal on such issues, so I ascribed it to that. I would be curious to know how the Orthodox you conversed with want their Church to "come out of the dark ages." What specific changes do they want? What specifically did they complain of?

--John

I would be curious what they meant. Normally that phrase sets off the Robbie the Robot "Danger, Danger" sound in my head.

It seems to me that the Orthodox do better in matters of liturgy and worship, but that the Catholics have done better in matters of moral theology. Remember that no Orthodox Church has, as a Church, upheld the Apostolic teaching against artificial contraception.

I agree with the above as it pertains to the past 40 years. Before that I think it is more "even", if different strengths. One big edge I think the Orthodox have right now (besides liturgy) is as pertains to their seminaries and clergy as compared with the Latin rite. There are holy priests in the latter, but there are also lots of priests who are themselves dissenters in Western countries. My impression is most Orthodox clergy, at least here in the new world, pretty much hold to the line in matters of doctrine.

Perhaps one edge Catholics have is their openness to reunion from an official level, and willingness to try and get the job done on that front.

I think both Catholics and Orthodox have a problem in terms of their respective laity taking a "cafeteria" approach to the Faith. It seems that many of the Orthodox people I have come to know are fairly "cultural" about their faith much as can be the case for the old Catholic cultural groups as well -- Irish, Italians, etc. Wedding, baptisms, some Sunday liturgies, etc. they are there, but it doesn't translate into much in terms of their worldview or day to day life in any substantial way -- e.g. more than just having pictures/icons up because "that's what we do."

Again, we see that on both sides. Clearly both sides could benefit from reunion. A stronger, healthier Church would result.

I think the Orthodox do a better job of preserving liturgy and tradition.

As for the birth control issue? I have tried to accept the Roman Catholic teaching, and I just can't. The same is true for the divorce teaching. For both issues, I think the Orthodox have done a better job of dealing with reality by "economia" than the Roman Catholic Church.

(Yes, I'm Catholic; yes, I know I'm supposed to believe in all Catholic teachings; but, try as I might, I just cannot do so on those two issues; I feel like I am being asked to believe in the ridiculous.)

As for moral theology overall? I don't study it in the formal sense. All I can observe (and only a little bit) is how people seem to keep morals. And, it seems that Orthodox and Catholics each have their share of sinners and saints.

Blessings.

--John

Many teachings of Christ are hard especially when they fly in the face of our fallen nature and our secular culture's formation. The latter particularly forms us in this way to think in these terms.

Both of these teachings were quite widely and universally accepted amongst all variety of Christians until the past few decades -- which coincided with the liberalization and de-Christianization of society and culture generally. The fact that many should suddenly now see these teachings as "unenlightened," "impossible," even "irresponsible" is a good sign where this development and understanding finds it root -- secular values, not gospel values. It's worth meditating upon.

I'd recommend that you continue to pray over it, ask for God's grace and, even though you struggle with the teachings, don't speak against them (which can cause scandal and lead others to dissent in these or other teachings) and set yourself on a path of following these teachings despite your struggles.

I think people who do this are to be commended. Even better to also willingly assent, but there is merit it seems to me to assent even when one is struggling, because it is a mark of humility and obedience to God-given authority that is placed over us. It also reminds me of the prayer (of St. Paul I believe) where he asks, "Lord help my unbelief."

Harmon-
You may want to read Humanae Vitae if you haven't. Many people who dissent haven't actually read the teaching as it is taught, but view it more as a "no-no" sort of prohibition. I am hard pressed to see how any Catholic, or any believer of good will, could read the actual, and prophetic, document and not see the truth of it. Paul VI predicted the effect on society once a contraceptive mentality took hold, and his predictions have come true.
Shawn-
Well the last forty years have been a time of unprecedented moral collapse; I mean even the Protestants held to the truth about contraception until 1930. To hold to the truth when it was largely unchallenged is no great virtue. To me it is precisely the Catholic Church's continuous teaching that is the best argument for its claims.
-Daniel

I agree. My point was simply that the change in the teaching on the part of the protestant communities (and presumably the Orthodox, though I am uncertain when that may have occured for them) is an example of a long-standing moral teaching being compromised in accordance with modern secular values. (e.g. these shifts weren't the result of a "development of doctrine" as Newman would understand it, but were in fact a rupture in the doctrine.)

Intrigued-

As someone who sings at a Byzantine-rite Church (which puts many Orthodox Churches to shame in terms of "correctness") and who also sings Gregorian Chant at a diocesan parish, I think that there isn't anything to be "ashamed" of, and I'd say the same to your Greek friends.

Think about the wonderful spiritual gifts of the Latin Rite: Gregorian Chant, the Rosary, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, a number of litanies and an incredible number of devotionals. The Roman Canon, even with the [charitable] creative [/charitable] English translation, is beautiful. Think about the beautiful Latin-rite iconography, either the "traditional" style you find in America or some of the region variants (in another thread I introduced the iconography of New Mexico).

One day I'll have to pick either the East or the West as a permanent spiritual home. I would not feel at all spiritually deprived in a good Latin-rite parish.

Marc

[I looked over the above and realize it may sound a bit harsh and apologetic. I DON'T mean it that way. And a "good" Latin or any other rite parish would require the time and effort of lots of people to make it so - including myself]

Shawn,

I think there have been "cultural" or what some would call "Cafeteria" Catholics for hundreds of years (although I find that term cafeteria to not be very accurate a word) Also, I would not be so hard on the "ethnic" Catholics or Orthodox either. I think there is a specific mentality among converts to both Faiths to want such a "PURE" Faith (which never really existed in this fallen world) that they tend to be very harsh on those who were born into the Faith who seem to them (the converts) to be "lax" Actually, I have found the cradle Orthodox especially to be much more secure in their Faith and tolerant (in the best sense of that term)
then those converts (and I am a convert) who seem to think they have to prove something by being more Orthodox then the Patriarch of MOscow (like some convert Catholics seem to try to be more Catholic then the Pope) I have great respect for those ethnic Orthodox people whose great example drew me to the Orthodox Faith much more so then did purity of doctrine or that they kept all the rules perfectly. We all are sinners. We fall , we get up and we try the best we can to live our Faith. This attempt to count who is a better Catholic or Orthodox because they hold to ALL the teachings in a "pure" way is really disturbing to me and seems alien to the ethos of both Faiths. I'm sorry if I have offended and I'm not saying you are this way.

Shawn
--I disagree with your recommendation to be quiet and to obey. I have tried that, and I still find the teaching to be ridiculous.

Iconophile
--I have read Humanae Vitae. In some ways, it is insightful and prescient. On the other hand, I reject the main contention: that the unitive and reproductive elements of sexual activity cannot be morally separated. I also reject the idea that the moral decay in the last 40 years is only or mostly due to artifical birth control.

--John

I also have "great trouble" with the teaching
that the "unitive/procreative" elements of sexual
activity cannot be separated. It is completely
beyond my reasoning and comprehension. And I'm
not in the least bit "liberal" in any way, shape,
or form, in any other area of Catholic teaching.
However, I do not reject the teaching, nor do I
speak against it in any way. I accept it as an
"article of faith" much like the Mystery of the
Trinity, and in all honesty, I can't understand
it any more than I can understand the Trinity...

antonius, Hammer of Heretics
(both real and imagined)

Dear John,

The unitive and procreative ends can be morally separated, as they often are in licit sexual acts. What matters is how they are separated. What cannot be done is for one to reduce another person simply to a means to an end, which is what happens when one chooses a contraceptive sexual act. It becomes mere use, rather than gift of self, since gift of self requires gift of the whole self to be genuine.

In a contraceptive sexual act, one says to the other "I love you, honey, but not all of you. Just your nicely shaped bits. I don't want those nicely shaped bits to do their proper function. In fact, I love you, but we need to use some sort of medicine or physical apparatus to make sure that your nicely shaped bits are rendered inert. See, I don't want kids with you right now, and rather than respect your whole self, including your fertile cycles, I think we should neuter you until I'm ready for kids. Yeah, I love you!"

Do you think such a person genuinely oves the other?

It's analagous to bulimia.

I edit to add that despite all this philosophical and theological mumbo-jumbo, what's really at the heart of it is Christ's words in the sermon on the mount, where he says that "If a man looks on a woman with lust in his heart, he has made her an adulterer." This is, as JPII says, a call for every man to respect the dignity of every woman. The teaching on contraception grows directly out of this.

One last thing. The prohibition of contraception was the universal teaching of all the Christian churches until 1930. If the Orthodox wanted to preserve the ancient faith, they would preserve this.