The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
That latin friend, Deacon Eric, Pastor Freed, Sebastian, Deepu
5,836 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 61 guests, and 30 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,153
Posts414,831
Members5,836
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 69
F
Member
OP Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 69
I'll make this short.
Face it, we are in a Holy War.
Last time I checked, the mother church of our beloved Byzantine Church Hagia Sophia was desecrated, not only by the Crusaders, but finally by muslim invaders, and turned into a mosque.
Why hasn't anyone of either the Holy Roman Catholic Church, or the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church, in light of the obvious threats to Christianity both East and West, called a spade a spade?
Terrorism is just another word for the inihilation of Christians by the Muslim extremists.
Complacency was the labratory of the Nazis.
Yet we have Orthodox Patriarchs acting as if they are immune to the cancer of Muslim extremists right at their doorstep, unwilling to seek unity "at any cost" with the West.
Divide and conquer was the maxim. Today it should be unthinkable. Unity of the Apostolic Christian Churches, Orthodox and Eastern should be of the first order. Then we need to deal with the Protestants with the same seriousness, and take on the "Infidels."
The silence of defending unity in Christianity across the board is deafening.
Is the sky falling, or is it just my overindulgence in cable news?
Fr.M


Fr.Michael
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,954
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,954
Dear Father Michael,

Christ is Risen!

You are completely correct, unfortunately!

On a recent thread I made the same assessment about this being a war of religions.

People in this country seem to realize it.

I do, think that the Pope realizes this, and I believe that my Ecumenical Patriarch has as well, and he has taken many strides in reunification with the West.

Indeed, unity, atleast in spirit, (for our spirit is one with Christ) of the East and West is the only answer to the very real and dangerous threat of Islam.

Perhaps those guilty parties who are espouse the 'if we ignore it, it will go away' delusionary fool's paradise they are in will realize it when it is too late. frown

Let's pray that is not the case.

With love in our Ressurected Lord,
Alice

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Quote
Originally posted by FrMichaelJS:
I'll make this short.
Face it, we are in a Holy War.
Last time I checked, the mother church of our beloved Byzantine Church Hagia Sophia was desecrated, not only by the Crusaders, but finally by muslim invaders, and turned into a mosque.
Why hasn't anyone of either the Holy Roman Catholic Church, or the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church, in light of the obvious threats to Christianity both East and West, called a spade a spade?
Terrorism is just another word for the inihilation of Christians by the Muslim extremists.
Complacency was the labratory of the Nazis.
Yet we have Orthodox Patriarchs acting as if they are immune to the cancer of Muslim extremists right at their doorstep, unwilling to seek unity "at any cost" with the West.
Divide and conquer was the maxim. Today it should be unthinkable. Unity of the Apostolic Christian Churches, Orthodox and Eastern should be of the first order. Then we need to deal with the Protestants with the same seriousness, and take on the "Infidels."
The silence of defending unity in Christianity across the board is deafening.
Is the sky falling, or is it just my overindulgence in cable news?
Fr.M
Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!


UNWILLING TO SEEK "UNITY AT ANY COST" biggrin

I'll make this equally short: That is what makes them Orthodox. Unwillingness to sacrifice the True Church for FALSE UNITY...

Nice thought, Fr. Michael. Join hands, sing Kumbaya (in Tone of the Week) and Muslims go away. It doesn't work like that, and in return, you sacrificed the Apostolic Church joining hands at "All Costs" with Protestants. Congratulations, thank you for playing.

Gaudior, rejecting ALL unity proposals originating in a playgroup.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Inquirer
Offline
Inquirer
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 127
Short! smile

I think his post had less to do with 'Kumbaya' than with "A house divided against itself cannot stand." We are not each other's enemy, or at least we should not be. Radical Islam is, and Fr. is very right to worry about what will happen if we cannot realize that fact. "False unity", "Kumbaya", and "playgroups" don't enter into that equation at all.

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,954
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,954
Dear Gaudior,

I can't speak for Fr. Michael, but I think that his 'style' is being misunderstood alot around this forum. I saw him on t.v., and let me tell you, he serves a great liturgy of St. John Chrysostom! wink

Actually, as I edited in my post above, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, has done much in the department of reunification of the Eastern and Western churches, and he also has to placate the Muslim country he is in, for the seat of Andrew's very survival. I think that he is doing a pretty good job, whilst also being embattled on the U.S. front from parts of the Greek Orthodox church that desire swift autonomy.

Forgive me if my post offended you, dear brother. I guess, I, like Father Michael, get so upset and frustrated by Islam, that words don't always come out as they should.

Fr. Michael is a good guy, a member of the holy priesthood, and a brother in Christ...

In sisterly Orthodox Christian love,
Alice

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,252
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,252
Dear Friends,

I have written on behalf of Christian unity many times on the forum.

Tell me if I am not theologically correct. All those with faith in Christ and baptism are incorporated into the church. On this level all the baptized are children of God and brothers and sisters to one another. On the spiritual plane we are already one.

On the human level we are divide by schism and heresy. Catholic Churches, Orthodox Churches and Protestant Churches.

Christ, our Lord, prayed that we be one (John 17:20-21). The Father will answer Christ's prayer for unity. Only we stand in the way.

We must pray for unity and at every opportunity, love every Christian and non-Christian we come in contact with.

All Christians must repent for our sins against each other. All Christians must center on Christ.
If we have the same goal (Christ) we will arrive at the same goal: a church united.

As far as Muslims are concerned, they are only part of the harvest. Jesus said, "Go into the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15b)

The church's vision is the whole world for Christ.

Peace,

Paul

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Non Nomnen,

Quote
Yet we have Orthodox Patriarchs acting as if they are immune to the cancer of Muslim extremists right at their doorstep, unwilling to seek unity "at any cost" with the West.
Divide and conquer was the maxim. Today it should be unthinkable. Unity of the Apostolic Christian Churches, Orthodox and Eastern should be of the first order. Then we need to deal with the Protestants with the same seriousness, and take on the "Infidels."
The silence of defending unity in Christianity across the board is deafening.
Father Micahel's quote was about unity in the face of a common threat, and began by complaining about how one group refuses to recognize the need for "unity at all costs".

How does this promote unity?

How does this stop Islam?

HOW about we STOP changing each other, and realize the real threat from Islam comes from our OWN weakness, that seeks to change our faith to lowest common denominator as long as it is unified...RATHER THAN STICK TO THAT APOSTOLIC FAITH THE FATHERS DIED FOR!

ONCE WE INSTILL IN OURSELVES AND OUR CHILDREN A DEEPNESS AND RICHNESS OF FAITH SUCH THAT OUR FATHERS HAD...THAT WE COULD DIE FOR CHRIST AS THEY DID....

A love for Him so rich and deep and sincere tat it transcends all cable TV shows and message boards....THEN...unified or NOT...Islam cannot stand against the Apostolic Churches. As individuals, they cannot convert us. As neighbors, our influence will individually convert those around us.As nations, our politics will be governed by our deeply held BELIEFS. Not by Christian unity.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but in non "Muslim" countries, Muslims have the SAME civil rights as EVERYONE ELSE. FREEDOM OF RELIGION. We can't "unify" against them. Not here, not in Europe, and NOT IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES WITHOUT GROSS VIOLATION OF ALL THAT IS HELD INVIOLABLE UNDER THE WORLD HUMAN RIGHTS ACCORDS.

Not as long as they act in a civilized manner. So far they have not. the military will deal with this FAR better than the WCC. But we cannot turn this into a Holy War. They tried that during the Crusades. Remember? All that happened is that Christians died because zealots couldn't tell the difference between Christians and Muslims because some were following a "divinely inspired" goose.

Gaudior, who has had ENOUGH.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 69
F
Member
OP Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 69
"Father Michael's quote was about unity in the face of a common threat, and began by complaining about how one group refuses to recognize the need for "unity at all costs".

Complaining am I?
Like a voice crying in the wilderness?
Some on this forum should find a hole in some sand, and bury their heads in it!
Their motto should be: "Give me disunity and give me death."
Divide and conquer. Alice is right on topic!
All Christians should seek every reason why we should "all be one" not look for every "dot and tittle" why we should be divided. We do not have that "luxury" anymore in the face of today's world.

Fr.M


Fr.Michael
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Fr. Michael!

I am delighted to hear that in the spirit of Christian unity against Islam you will be abandoning the New Calendar, embracing the Old, dropping all dogmas added since the Schism, and not adhering to foolish JOTS and tittles...

NOT hiding your head in the sand!

And enjoying your honey and locusts!

Gaudior, amused

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Quote
Originally posted by alice:
Dear Gaudior,

I can't speak for Fr. Michael, but I think that his 'style' is being misunderstood alot around this forum. I saw him on t.v., and let me tell you, he serves a great liturgy of St. John Chrysostom! wink

Actually, as I edited in my post above, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, has done much in the department of reunification of the Eastern and Western churches, and he also has to placate the Muslim country he is in, for the seat of Andrew's very survival. I think that he is doing a pretty good job, whilst also being embattled on the U.S. front from parts of the Greek Orthodox church that desire swift autonomy.

Forgive me if my post offended you, dear brother. I guess, I, like Father Michael, get so upset and frustrated by Islam, that words don't always come out as they should.

Fr. Michael is a good guy, a member of the holy priesthood, and a brother in Christ...

In sisterly Orthodox Christian love,
Alice
Christos Anesti!
Alithos Anesti!

Dear Alice,

Your words have caused no offense.

Gaudior, saying "Irini Pace"

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
I generally find myself much more likely to be in agreement with my sister, Alice, than with with my brother, Gaudior. However, in this instance, I understand Father Michael to be suggesting that we Catholics and our Orthodox brothers and sisters ought to come to union so that we can better battle the "Infidels" of Islam - not so much theologically as secularly.

It seems to me that achievement of the union we all so much desire would be better served when it is sought for the joy of worshipping God together, than to better our ability to exercise worldly supremacy over those of another faith. If I have misinterpreted Father Michael's meaning, I apologize.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 260
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 260
Is it really proper to say, "It's those evil Muslims we need to deal with?" They say the same thing, "It's those evil Christians with their Crusader mentality we need to deal with."

Fanaticism on both sides is one of the major problems, but even then, it is not the only problem. It is, however, a means by which one side can point to someone on the other - some of the fanatics and what they have done -- and say, "See, look what they are like."

The Orthodox/Catholic situation has been the same way. "We will not forget the sacking of Constantinople: look at what those Catholics are really like!"

Yet, unlike what many have said in here, the Pope has consistently said that it is not _Islam_ but radicals within which are a problem. What causes the radicals to be a problem. Is it their religion? Certainly it helps fuel the situation, but clearly it is not the religion itself. (I know people can take quotes out of context from the Koran and say -- see, look how evil; for each Koranic quote, I can offer several Biblical quotes). We must be willing to understand humanity -- and what we are willing, and capable of doing, when we begin to view the other as some dehumanized version of themselves ("It's those evil Muslims!" "It's those evil Jews!" sounds so familiar together). Those who are dehumanized, and pushed into a cage like an animal, will fight like an animal. This is what is going on in Israel for example -- it is not a "Jew" vs "Muslim" situation; it is the state of Israel vs any non-Jew.

Pope Petros VII, Greek Patriarch of Alexandria states, "It can be said that dialogue between Christianity and Islam springs from the essence of Christianity, which is the foremost religion of dialogue." He realizes this need, and understands the way members of both religions tend to view the other with distrust. "Unfortunately, racial and religious discrimination often aggravate the minds of men and bring back the painful past. As a result, Christian and Muslim communities often have reservations about approaching one another and about the feasibility of peaceful coexistence."

Patriarch Alexei II also points to this need for dialogue. "The beginning of the new century was marked by monstrous acts of violence. The world has been faced with a real threat of an artificial, provoked clash of the Christian and Islamic civilizations. Against this backdrop, the experience of a mutually respectful and equal dialogue between Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism, historically intrinsic to our country, is called for, as never before."

It has been said that Pope John Paul II sees this converging conflict of religions and sees it as a religious war. He sees people within the religions doing it, but he is very clear -- not to think in this way, and to understand the war going on now, was not and is not religious. Religion is an accident to the war.

John Paul II also has continued the call for dialogue, to properly get to know each other. To end this dehumanization.

"It is important that Muslims and Christians continue to explore philosophical and theological questions together in order to come to a more objective and comprehensive knowledge of each others' religious beliefs. Better mutual understanding will surely lead at the practical level to a new way of presenting our two religions not in opposition, as has happened too often in the past, but in partnership for the good of the human family."

Ultimately he says, "Hatred, fanaticism and terrorism profane the name of God and disfigure the true image of man." This is something we need to remember; when we took look out in hatred, when we look to point fingers at another religion, because of some fanatics within, we fuel the fire to create our own fanatical response.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,249
Likes: 16
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,249
Likes: 16
Dear Friends,

While I believe unity can only be valid when it is based on truth etc., I do think there are those in East and West who put up unnecessary roadblocks on the path to unity.

I've been told by Orthodox that they cannon join with the Roman Catholics because the latter use azymes, have unmarried priests who are prone to abusiveness, etc. etc. etc.

And it is true that the Orthodox and the Orientals have historically PREFERRED to be under Muslim rule rather than under Roman Catholic crusader rule.

I don't know if they still feel that way today . . .

But one reason why I find "ecumenical" discussions so unreal is the way in which, mostly Orthodox, participants: 1) throw up unnecessary roadblocks; 2) refuse to see that both sides just might believe in the same thing but reach for it through different means.

It is time for the Orthodox to open their eyes and smell the (Turkish) coffee.

It would seem that even if ALL the theological issue were resolved, the Orthodox would still have to deal with much psychological, Anti-Western baggage they are themselves responsible for nurturing and maintaining across the centuries.

Alex

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,954
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,954
Dear Alex,

As usual, I agree with you, and even when I don't, it is impossible to be upset with you! You always have such a calming way of stating your opinions and facts. That is truly a blessing from God.

I really do cherish the way you present things.
(and I have read much material of yours on the internet pertaining to theological matters). smile

With much love in Christ our Lord,
Alice

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,249
Likes: 16
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,249
Likes: 16
Dear Alice,

You are and always will be our most precious treasure!!

Alex

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5