www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Holiness vs. All-Holiness

Father Anthony,

Such is the problem with implication. As previously stated, I have tried to research this topic on the internet, but to no avail. Maybe I'm just a bad search engine searcher, but I've honestly not been able to find a webpage with my desired information on it. That is why I ask this question on the Byzantine Forum: I respect the education and opinions of the members of the Forum. If you find this to somehow be arrogant or prideful, I apologize. That's not my intention. If you have credible sources, I would appreciate citations. That's all I'm asking - - - I don't see how that's too demanding.

Logos Teen

At 6:25AM, before I have to leave for a long day here are two:
Patriarch of Constantinople [nationmaster.com]
And
Vicar of Christ [newadvent.org]

As a side note, yes I do find the style to be arrogant and arguing for the sake of argument. If you examine your reply at least twice, they exhibit prideful arrogance that you were even called on by Father Deacon John. The above links are quick search results, but if you go into citation regarding the fourth council, and propably the Justinian Code after that you will find your information. These links should be enough for you to get a start.

Thank you for the links, Father.

I didn't find anything that specifically spoke of the use of "All-Holiness" as a title. Like I said before, I'm interested in the history of its usage.

Interestingly, I was searching through the Justinian Code as you recommended, and came across a section which called the bishop of Rome "the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome" and the bishop of constantinople "the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome."

Now, I wonder why the pope is referred to as "Most Holy" and the P of C as "Most Blessed?" I wonder if there's a reason for this difference. Earlier on, Emperor Justinian calls the pope " Archbishop of that fair city, Rome." I find it interesting that he's referred to as archbishop.

Other than being completely shocked by the authority exhibited by Pope John, and the utter recognition of this authority by the emperor (and a seemingly ardent desire to subjugate "the Eastern priests" to it), I didn't really learn anything that substantial...especially about the term usages.

I know you're a busy man of God, Father, so I'm not asking you to give me the history of the usage of "All-Holiness." I just know that someone on this Forum can do it, given the extensive training and education of many of the members here. Father Deacon says it's "simply a correct translation of the Greek," but I really don't know what this means. Greek from when? Nowadays? 1300 years ago? From what documents, etc.? That's what I'm interested in.

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

Greek can be a tricky language. Often what is referred to as a translation into English from Greek is incorrect. The term transliteration is the proper. Many Greek terms or words do not translate, but rather a close match must be found in English. By what you found is just such examples. Latin to English has the same problem, as well as Slavonic to English. The English language being the problem since it takes words from multiple languages. Many times terms are in English that have a close proximity to the meaning in Greek, but in the original meaning are not a direct match. This is why you have a variation of translations of things like liturgical texts, titles, canon and cathechisms. You will always read that the original language is the authoratative. You will see this note in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.

Now you see why, getting a simple and clear answer is somewhat difficult. Ask any classical language teacher, and they will give the same answer.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Since we are on the topic of titles, I just had to share this one with you:

Edward William Frederick David Walugembe Luwangula
Mutesa II - Professor of Almighty Power and Knowledge, Lord of the Clans and the Land, the Father of All Twins, the Blacksmith's Hammer, the Smelter of Iron, the Power of the Sun, First Officer of the Order of the Shield and Spears, the Cook with All the Firewood.

And no, I didn't just make this up!

Dear Felipe,
I love it! Thanks for posting it. But who is this person?

Incognitus

Incognitus,

He is King Muteesa II. In his last will and testament, he even planned out Succession to the Kabakaship! Sheesh!

Here is the link: http://www.buganda.com/ddaame.htm

enjoy!

In Christ,

Michael

Dear Logos Teen you said:

"So, you are saying that this honorific of "All-Holiness" was accorded to the Patriarch of Constantinople during the Byzantine Empire? I find it amazing, almost unbelievable, that the Pope of the Eternal City wouldn't be referred to as "All-Holiness," especially if Number Two was."

I say:

After Justinian the language of New Rome, (Constantinople) became Greek. Now one has to realize that the world ceased to exist because of the barbarian invasions. Civilization existed only in Constantinople and maybe Baghdad and Cordova.

The Empire had no one to compete with, so the Greeks turned inward and began to write and educate themselves in classical Greek. Everything to them were words, words, and more words. Not that they don't do that today to some extent, but today at least they are forced to look outside of themselves.

These titles, and believe me titles were made up left and right, were just an expression of a society turned inward.

I'm sure if someone found all the translations, they would undoubtably find a lot more titles used by the Patriarch of Constantinople...granted him no doubt by the Emporor.

It was a sign of the times.

Zenovia

Dear Logus Teen,

As an example of how 'inward' the Greeks had become because of the lack of competition in the world, at the time the Turks conquered the 'City' there were more educated people than all of Western Europe, more libraries than all of Western Europe, and more schools than all of Western Europe.

Yet Constantinople was at the time quite run down and only a fraction of what it had been before.

Zenovia

Someone just sent me an envelope addressed to . . . well the title is so ridiculous I wouldn't dare quote it. But I am morally certain that the friend who sent it did not intend the honorific to be taken seriously!

Incognitus

Incognitus,

Please fill in the ... . Inquiring minds want to know.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Father Anthony,
I would provide you with an English translation of the "honorific" in question gladly, if I could do so privately. Unfortunately, I have no way of doing that!

Incognitus