www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Holiness vs. All-Holiness

I don't know if this is the right forum in which to post this question. If it's not, I invite the moderators to move it elsewhere.

I have a pretty simplistic question, but one that I cannot really find answered on the internet...

Why is the Patriarch of Constantinople referred to as "His All-Holiness," whereas the Patriarch of Rome (pope) is referred to as "His Holiness?"

This clearly seems to place the P. of C. above the Pope, which is misleading because we all know Rome to have the primary place among the historical patriarchates.

Is this some Eastern Orthodox usage that came into being post-Schism since Rome was no longer in communion with the other patriarchates? Certainly this couldn't have been used before the Schism, right?

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

It is simply correct translation of the Greek. I did notice, however, that the Greek Catholic bishops at Pope John Paul II's funeral used all-holy for the Pope as well.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear LT:

Another intriguing question!

Not only the EP is addressed as "His All-Holiness," he is also titled as "Archbishop of Constantinople" while the Pope remains titled merely as the "Bishop of Rome!" :rolleyes:

If only to assuage your concern, however, the official website of the EP refers to the then Bishop of Rome, Pope John Paul II, as "His All-Holiness":

I think this "titling" business as conducted by the East is aimed at surpassing, or at least trying to equal, those of the West which has its influence and "jurisdiction" now virtually spanning the entire globe.

Clearly and sadly, the EP's attempt is not supported by current evidence. The titles and honorifics lack pith and substance: numerically, there are large Orthodox jurisdictions which do not follow or recognize the EP as the spiritual leader of world Orthodoxy and it may not even be able to sustain nor maintain its survival in Turkey.

Let's wake up to reality!

Amado

Ecclesiastical titles seldom correspond too closely to reality. Constantinople's fuller title is "His Divine All-Holiness", which probably shows what the whole business is worth. If that doesn't do it, one might remember that the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa, despite being merely "His Divine Beatitude and Thirteenth Apostle" is also "Judge of the World".

Not that there aren't some remarkable titles in the Western Church also! My favorite is the "Order of the Golden Fleece" - I've run into some people who seem remarkably well-qualified for that particular distinction (in the sense of Senator Proxmire's regularly bestowed "Golden Fleece Award" for the government boondoggle which had successfully bilked the taxpayers out of the most money for the least return in the last while). But there's plenty more where that came from.

Then, of course, there are presumably secular positions which one might discuss. The late "Queen Mother" of hither and yon had, naturally, a bedroom. This in itself would be no cause for comment. However, this bedroom, in turn, was supplied - at the public expense - with rather more than 25 attendants, some termed "Women of the Bedchamber" and the higher echelons styled "Ladies of the Bedchamber". This in turn prompted a Scots MP, back around 37 years ago, to ask on the floor of the House of Commons during the annual appropriations to remunerate these presumably grand dames, "Just what kind of bedchamber is this?!"

Then, of course, there is the calendar of saints. If I were to quote a few of the wilder expressions to be found in that source, I would be accused of blasphemy!

Incognitus

Still, I don't see the reasoning behind the usage.

I guess "Vicar of Christ" tops them all, though!

Logos Teen

Dear Teen,

I believe that this was historically an honorific title that was bestowed by the Emperor to state that the archbishop of Constantinople was the primate of Imperial capital. If you look at the title "pope" it is shared by at least one other primate of an autocephlous church, Alexandria, both Eastern Orthodox and Coptic. As far as "Vicar of Christ", that title was not added to the Roman Pontiff's long list of titles until the late Middle Ages, if I am not mistaken.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

At times - there is competition for the most finery.

I think the titles and costums have become - outlandish.

Now stay tuned for - the Fall Fashion show.

"Oh.. stunning! His Every-So-Holiest Holiness is wearing an Gucci design down the runway - and an asistant is needed to carry the gold Pectorial cross! which weights in at a whopping 10 pounds! A first this year! - we will have to wait till next year to see if any designer can beat that display of holiness and authority. Bravo! did you catch the pointed toes and tassels - last year's Latin style but still regal. (pause) Next on the runway is the line up of Eastern bishops...."

Did anyone notice that some of these kings have no cloths?

I would that they all dress as common local priests. Brothers from top to bottom.

-ray

Nonsense Ray.
Let's get rid of everything historical in the Church, we can strip it bare like the Protestant reformers did centuries ago, and look what happened.
Gee a deneutered, powerless puff.
Did I say that? Oh excuse me for being frank and candid.
Stephanos I

Father, bless!

The Coptic Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "pope" as well, isn't he?

So, you are saying that this honorific of "All-Holiness" was accorded to the Patriarch of Constantinople during the Byzantine Empire? I find it amazing, almost unbelievable, that the Pope of the Eternal City wouldn't be referred to as "All-Holiness," especially if Number Two was.

And I guess the difference in "Vicar of Christ" is that one would not address the pope in a letter as such. If writing a letter to the pope, one addresses him as either "Your Holiness" or "Most Holy Father," not "Vicar of Christ."

Logos Teen

Dear Teen,

I believe you may be right about the Catholic Coptic Patriarch, but I do not have a reference for them.

As far as the emperor bestowing the title, and the pope having to play number two, in the world of political reality (not religious) after the transfer of the capital to Constantinople, Rome was a city in rapid decay and abandonment. Even the popes tranferred their residence to Ravenna until the vandal raids and this was for more than a century. Remember Rome was considered because of climate, etc. to be a an undesirable place even by the popes until the late Middle Ages, when the Babylonian captivity had finally ended. That is when I believe the term "Eternal City" was coined. Almost to attract pilgrims and clerics alike back, and probably the papacy.

I hope this clears things up.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Why would you say that? According to the teaching of the Church Fathers in Council, all bishops are "vicars of Christ" (cf. Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church ,n. 27).

Surprising though is no one has followed suit into using the Pope's most humbling titles, as exemplified by the late Holy Father, Pope John Paul II: "Servant of the Servants of God!"

Amado

Thank you Deacon John.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I would say that, Father Deacon, because I know of no other bishop who employs that title, whether or not the Council said that the term could be applied to all bishops.

And what about forty-five years ago, before the Council? I suppose the same couldn't properly be said then.

I'm still not clear on whether or not "All-Holiness" was used for the P of C before the Schism. Any sources, Father Anthony? I don't doubt you, but it just seems a little anachronistic to me.

Logos Teen

Doubt it or not, your implication is that you are, and that you are also calling into question Father Deacon John's quotation. I have referred you to the the periods if you read the posts the first being after the establsihment of the new patriarchate, and suggest you research it before calling it into question. If you are not open to the facts then you should not be posting a question like this, unless you were just looking for confirmation of your original question to reinforce a prejudice. Your previous posts on this and other threads seemingly smack of pride and arrogance. That I bring to your attention not as a moderator, but as a poster on this forum.

Father Anthony+