www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moscow's rhetoric versus a global christian message

Dear djs,

I don't think I'm off the mark and this is why . . .

We're not talking Canada here, I wish we were, but we're not .

My priestly friend in St Catharines has LOADS of tradlats and he welcomes them all. I wish I could bring him more than I have.

We're talking about Mother Russia and her Orthodox Church. We're talking about a Christian culture there that's over 1,000 years old. And we're talking about Latin outreach that the Vatican officially denies is going on.

Relatives and in-laws have witnessed and told me that it is going on. But I have never seen it myself and I too sometimes doubt my in-laws's sincerity .

If a Russian came to the Latin Church to join, then the "sisterly" thing to do is to bring them into communion with the Russian Orthodox Church.

That is also the gentlemanly thing to do. A good Latin pastor should find out the motives of why a person wants to join the Latin Church. The Latin pastor my in-laws met said that he cares not a wit about the Byzantine Rite/Church and that was that.

This, plus the whole sociology of faith and culture that is strong in Europe and Russia, - all this means that the Vatican should have adopted a different approach.

But it didn't and is now being booted out of Russia - priest by priest.

Recently, the Franciscans came under fire in Moscow. It would appear that an apartment they rented out was being used as a brothel and the Moscow papers are having a field day.

Rome is "persona non grata" and it should reflect on how things degenerated to this level.

Alex

Dear Friends,

One more point to our colleague Jim, that being that there is no such thing as a "global Christian message" if, by that, we mean the proclamation of the Gospel within some sort of culturally neutral framework.

There is no such framework and if we fail to realize our own Western paradigms in proclaiming the Gospel to Russia and elsewhere, our priests are liable to be booted out . . .

Alex

My point of view is somewhat different. I believe that the ROC putting out catholic priests is not and never was a cultural issue as some of you have put it, but strictly political. If it were a cultural issue than the Russian Catholic Church would be OK, because they maintain all the Orthodox traditions. What's wrong with them? What excuse do they have? None,in my point of view. I think we have to ask the MPs what their definition is of Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Christianity as a whole. They just seem to say that: "It's either our way or no way at all". As I have said many times before, it's not the Russian people but in reality just a band of trouble makers that make a lot of noise and these people are usually Red with very little cultural background if any at all. They really need our prayers.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Yes, but the point is that the Russian Byzantine Catholics cannot organize themselves but must be under the Latin Church in Russia!

We simply cannot know the extent of Latin "outreach" among the Russians and whose fault it is etc.

The point is that Russia has gone through this before and this does go beyond "cultural" issues.

It is political and the government there is working in tandem to defend the ROC as it sees fit.

Again, we cannot impose western views on Russia's political, national and religious system and way of thinking.

And wouldn't we Eastern Catholics be the first to scream bloody murder if the West did outreach among our members?

Don't we already?

The Vatican had an opportunity to set a brilliant example in ecumenical understanding here.

Instead, it opted for an old-style approach that has left years of ecumenical discussion and well-wishes in ashes.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Fine for a Russian Orthodox, or a Russian of Orthodox heritage. But I don't agree that this should be done for a "Russian" of Polish, Lithuanian, or evidently Ukrainian heritage.
(Is a Russian Ukraininan Orthodox (KP) as ridiculuous as a Russian Roman Catholic?)

Agreed. Now the question that remains is to sort out to what extent really are the Latin pastors and the Vatican policy "bad" as you describe, or is this bad example a typical.

Alex,
I think I understand your view, but I can't understand their view, because I see no need for them to lie, to make up scandals and produce stories like the ones the Franciscans are going through nowadays (about the prostitution). I really can't see why the bishops of both churches can't sit down at a round table have a couple of glasses of vodka eat some picles and kobasa, sing a little and than discuss their problems like normal people.
Lauro

Dear djs,

I think we can both agree that the spiritual heritage of ALL East Slavs alike is Orthodoxy (in or out of communion with Rome) and not the Latin Church.

As for what the Latin Church is actually doing in Russia - there's the Latin story, the Russian story and then there's the true story.

If you can discover the true story, please let us know immediately!

But the onus is on the Latin Church to be the gentleman as a guest in Russia. Russia acts like a gentlemanly guest in the West.

Alex

Alex,

I totally agree with everything that you said with the exception of your comment that the expulsions are "understandable.'

It is one thing to stand in support of the Russian Orthodox Church, it is one thing to criticize Latin expansionism, it is one thing to encourage East Slav pride in their heritage and traditions; it is quite another thing to even give lip support to opportunist Russian politicians kicking the Catholic Church around (even if the Catholic Church has done worse things to Russia). What positive result can ever come out of that? As djs asked and Remie confirmed there are Catholic minority communities that need to be tended to in Russia; they should be left alone and not have to go through these turbulent experiences.

we cannot impose western views on Russia's political, national and religious system and way of thinking.

Of course that should not be done but, like everything, there is a limit. We don't let dictators get away with saying that human rights is not in their culture so it shouldn't apply to them; we don't allow Taliban types to get away with saying that keeping women in bondage and ignorance and stoning them for rumors of adultery is their religion and heritage. You wouldn't let a tribal/rural Australian Aborigine sacrifice a man in your honor as guest would you? I know these are extreme examples but they still make the point that falling on the argument that it is one's culture to do something that is not right can't hold in the long run.

Ultimately, Kiev Christianity will offset these expansionist trends by undergoing its own revival and energetic renewal. It will never be offset by political manipulations. Such manipulations and rubble rousing can turn very dangerous.

No, that great friend of humankind that helped to overthrow the corrupted and rotten mafia controlled capitalism under which Cuban Christians starved, were illiterate, bare footed, homeless, malnourished, with out health care and racially segregated. Who helped establish a system that is human and not profit oriented and is thus more closer to Christian principles than any previous socio-economic system that ever existed in Cuba with the exception of the egalitarian Arawak Indians who are now extinct thanks to the genocide of "devout Christian' conquistadores.

…now why is it that my side comments always attract more attention than my main point? I was talking about Argentine missionaries going to Russia. So, how are things in utopian Sweden?

Inawe:

Well, actually I was making a comparisson between the spirit of Protestantism and the modern world.
My reference wasn't really directed to the Latin Church but after I saw your post, the coincidence of this comparisson was un-avoidable. I tried to say that the spirit of a "secular worship" is present in the western-modern society, I'm not surprised if this has inflitrated the Latin Church, but as you said, it is a problem of culture and praxis, and not a fault of the Church's right and orthodox teachings that obviously condemns the problem of the cultural decadence in the Church' worship.

Abdur said:

"And what of the millions of former Christians who now look elsewhere for spiritual solace, because of Christendom's endemic infighting?"

Everything is connected. I don't wanna get paranoid but...

This is a phenomenon of the modern developped society, those millions of christians left the faith not because of christianity's teachings are bad. It's because the modern world's version of christianity has been deprived of a spiritual environment they try to find.
It is no coincidence that the periods of more apostasy in the christian world have coincided with those of a technological and rationalist development (the years of Protestantism... and today.)

In the Eastern world after the Ottoman invasion, there was a different story, people converted to islam because it was an easier religion: no taxes, no christian moral and political privileges... that was all.

Aklie said:
it is quite another thing to even give lip support to opportunist Russian politicians kicking the Catholic Church around

I totally agree, it is not a coincidence that a lot of those politicians who are now fervent defenders of Orthodoxy, were the same people who supported the persecutions in the Soviet Era.

I am sorry that I wasn't more specific when I initially said "global christian message". What I had in mind was something comparable to a papal encyclical, which could just possibly reach far beyond the Russian Church itself, and offer an opportunity for commonality with Christians of other confessions. In other words, I don't often see the Moscow Patriarch taking the high road when it comes to speaking to the rest of the world. Of course, maybe his public relations staff needs some improvement, instead. Does that clarify a little?

Couldn't agree more. And let's bear in mind that there are a few non-Eastern Slavs (and non-Russian eastern-Slavs) scattered about Russia - e.g., in cities like Magadan.

I try to keep up via Stetson,
http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/00currentchoices.shtml
but wish I more detailed information. I think we all would like to avoid forming an opinion based on presuppositions
rather than facts.

Agreed. And I also will continue to hope that the ROC treats these guests with characteristic Slavic hospitality.

djs

Dear Alex:

I could not disagree more. If we were fully united, fine. But we're not. To be blunt: As Ut Unum Sint (or maybe it's Dominus Iesus?--forget which & too lazy to look it up) says, the Orthodox Churches "lack little" of what's required for full communion. But they ain't 100% there yet. We are still separated. And the Catholic Church still possesses the fullness of the faith, as Lumen Gentium makes clear and as all Catholics are required to believe. Therefore, while we rejoice when someone journeys from unbelief or from Protestantism to any form of true Apostolic Christianity, we certainly prefer, hope, and pray that the person will come "all the way home" to the Universal Church Jesus founded upon Peter the Rock.

We cannot put Easternness -- or Orthodox patrimony -- above Catholicity, IMHO. Jesus died for the world, not for one hemisphere. Important as patrimony is, it is not the be-all and end-all. Communion with Peter's successors is more important, for that is the provision Our Lord made for His Church.

I agree that it would be preferable to put a Russian enquirer in touch with an Eastern Catholic parish. But if that's impossible and only a Latin parish is available -- well, the Latin Rite is not exactly a fate worse than death, you know! It may be less than ideal, but it's still preferable to being out of communion with Peter. If we don't believe this, then why are we Catholics? If easternness is more important than communion with Rome, then what does "being Catholic" even mean? And why bother?

Blessings,

ZT, confused

Thank you, Archbishop Ireland.

Abdur

My dearest Zoe-Theodora,

I can asure you that I am quite confused as well, specially after reading your post. I am not sure of having understood your post (my English is not so good) but I would say that what you mean is that these Orthodox guys are nice people (they have a very nice liturgy, wonderful icons, beautiful ornaments) but unfortunately they have not the "full truth" (i. e. they are not into communion with the Roman See) they "lack little" of what's required for full communion" to use your own words, so that this "little lack" give us the right to make freely proselytism among them without respecting their liturgical and theological tradition. That is what we could call Rome's universal right to proselytism and latinization. Well, I think that this is not the ecclesiology and the doctrine about ecumenism of the II Vatican Council but rather the ecclesiology of the Tridentine and the I Vatican Council.

My dearest ZoeTheodora,

To be Orthodox means to be faithful (or better to try to be faithful)to the faith of the Holy Apostles and the techings of the Fathers and the OEcumenical Councils. To be Orthodox means to fight for the true faith againt the error. To be Orthodox has nothing to do with being in communion with Rome. Are all the Roman Catholics "orthodox" from the dogmatical point of view of the Catholic Church? Cernainly there are a lot of "un-orthodox" Catholics in the Catholic Church. Were "orthodox" those who were in communion with the heretic pope Honorius I? Certainly they were not. To be Orthodox means to be in communion with all the Orthodox bishops all around the world (the bishop of Rome included). "Saint" Eustathios of Thessaloniki (14th century) (Or was he "Saint" Simeon of Thessaloniki? Both of them were recentely cononized by the OEcumenical Patriarchate) wrote that he had no problem with the primacy of the bishop of Rome, but he asked the bishop of Rome to prove him that his faith was that of the Apostles Peter and Paul (to prove that he was "orthodox"). Yes I believe that the faith of the bishop of Rome is the faith of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, but in the case that the faith and the teching of the bishop of Rome (heaven forbit!) stop to be the faith and the teaching of Saint Peter and Saint Paul them I will not want to be in communion with him. Do not forget that Saint Peter was not only bishop of Rome (Jerusalem, Antioch) and that his confession of faith is understood by most Catholic theologians like the profession of faith of all the Apostles and not like a particular profession of faith of Peter.

Yours in Christ,
Francisco

Shlomo Alex,
I think that many here forget that the Catholic presence in Russia has to do with the policies of the Imperial government. Here is a timeline of how major Catholic groups came into Russia.

**************************************************
April 21, 1729 Sophia Augusta Frederica of Anhalt-Zerbst born. She later ruled Russia under the name Catherine II.

1756-1763 Seven Years' War. This was an important factor in bringing the Germans to the Lower Volga to establish colonies. The areas of now central Germany were devastated, creating more instability for the peasants.

June 28, 1762 Catherine II ascends the throne of Russia.

July 22, 1763 Catherine II issued her second manifesto inviting foreigners to settle in Russia. It spelled out the conditions under which they could immigrate and granted special rights and privileges. Large numbers of German peasants accepted the invitation.

1764-1767 Founding of German colonies along the Lower Volga River.

1786 Mennonites from West Prussia began immigrating to Russia due to the 1772 Partition of Poland, which threatened their military service exemption as conscientious objectors.

1793 Second Partition of Poland.

1795-1797 Third Partition of Poland. After settling sharp differences on division of the spoils, the victorious powers concluded treaties between 1795 and 1797 on the third partition of Poland. By the terms of the treaties, the Russian Empire received about half of the remaining Polish territory, and Prussia and Austria each received about a quarter. With these events, the Polish state disappeared from the map of Europe.

Nov 6, 1796 Death of Catherine II at age sixty-seven.

1796-1801 Reign of Tsar Paul I, son of Catherine II.

1801-1825 Reign of Tsar Alexander I, the well-beloved, grandson of Catherine II.

Feb 20, 1804 Alexander I reissues manifesto of Catherine II, with some modifications, inviting foreigners to settle in New Russia.

1825-1855 Reign of Tsar Nicholas I, Grandson of Catherine II, and brother of Alexander I.

1855-1881 Reign of Tsar Alexander II, great-grandson of Catherine II; son of Nicholas I.

1860s Another wave of Germans immigrates to Volhynia prompted by the 1861 abolishment of serfdom.

Polish Insurrection of 1863 brought more Germans to Volhynia and other areas of Russia.

Jun 4, 1871 Imperial Russian Government issues decree repealing the Manifestos of Catherine II and Alexander I, terminating, after a period of ten years' grace, the special privileges of the German colonists.

Jan 13, 1874 Russian Government issues second decree which amended the one of June 4, 1871. The second decree instituted compulsory military conscription for the German colonists. These two decrees impelled thousands of German Russians to immigrate to North and South America.

1871 Germany unified as a nation for the first time. This created great unease among the European nations and Russia. This is also the time of increased animosity towards foreigners in Russia due to the slavophile movement and growing nationalism in Russia.

Aug 28, 1941 Deportation of All the Volga Germans to Siberia. (about 400,000 people).

1945 Adjustment of the Polish-Russian border westward.
**************************************************

Now the question is should the Catholic Church had made the Germans and the Poles (plus other ethnic groups that were Catholic) join the Russian Orthodox Church as your post implies?

If you believe that, then should not the Orthodox in the West then be forced to become Latin Catholic since they are in the Roman Patriachal sphere?

Lastly, if we believe in religious freedom, should it not extend to those that wish to keep their Liturgical Traditions (the Russian Greek Catholics for example), but be unified with the See of Peter?

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon