www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moscow's rhetoric versus a global christian message

Dear Friends,

Are we having fun here, or what?!

I agree with djs, Francisco and Yuhannon - I don't know if we've all ever agreed together like this before!

Now, as for you, ZoeTheodora . . .

Shhh. . . I know, I know, but we can't let on to these orthodox schismatics what we Catholics in union with the Pope REALLY think of their sorry spiritual state - and I understand that "almost there" only counts with horses . . . (kidding, guys, kidding : .

The Roman Catholic Church has never denied that the Orthodox Church is THE Church of Christ - although it believes it is in a state of rebellion.

Fullness, schmull-ness, the RC's (the REALLY true Church as we all know, especially we BC's as we are reminded of that often enough by youz guyz) believe that the Orthodox Church has all the Sacraments, Faith and what-have-you to make it to heaven, although, according to Rome, it could be a rockier road for not having the fullness of the papal seat planted squarely on top of one's shoulders.

Fullness notwithstanding, it doesn't mean the Orthodox Church isn't fully "Church" and fully salvific.

If there's been a change to that in recent RC teaching, please do let me know so I can send the message on to an acquaintance who works for the Moscow Patriarch.

At least they will have less on their consciences as they throw more Latin priests out of Russia in future . . .

Alex

Dear Yuhannon,

Number one, we're not talking about Germans, Poles or other descendants of the invaders of Russia joining the Orthodox Church.

Enough of them certainly have and some of these are today canonized saints of Orthodoxy (e.g. St Procopius of Ustiug, a German merchant and Orthodox Saint who prayed his Latin Psalter throughout his life).

We're talking about native-born, ethnic Russians, not "Russian citizens."

Europe and Asia still don't confuse citizenship with ethnicity, even though we do that often enough in North America.

And we're talking about Latin and Greek Catholic missionaries actually trying to pull Orthodox over to Rome.

When I worked with a catechism team that prepared a basic catechism for public schools in eastern Ukraine, we came across nuns and priests of the Greek Catholic persuasion who, when asked to say a simple prayer before lunch at a school, would rush through a Hail Mary and then go on about the Pope etc. and this to an all-Orthodox group of students!

We had to recommend to keep those papalist fanatics away from the kids as they were doing our efforts irreparable damage.

When Orthodox say there is proselytism going on, I can't deny that I've heard complaints directly from people's mouths over there, people who don't like the Moscow Patriarchate either.

Alex

Dear Jim,

You raise a very good point.

Certainly, the Pope of Rome has a responsibility for Catholics world-wide and so he does speak to them from a "universal" vantage point in a way that only he can.

I think one of the great benefits of being in communion with the Pope of Old Rome is that it helps us develop this universal focus, on top of our own parochial and other local foci.

The Moscow Patriarchate too is enabled now to speak on questions of world-wide significance and does so at every turn.

The website of the Moscow Patriarchate lists many press releases containing His Holiness the Patriarch's statements on terrorism, poverty etc.

I visit that website almost as frequently as I visit EWTN and the Vatican's . . .

When the MP glorified the more than one thousand New Martyrs under the Soviet Yoke in 2000, I could readily identify with him and with that heritage of martyrdom under communism.

I was also happy that he glorified many Ukrainian New Martyrs and Confessors, including the Ukrainian Metropolitan-Martyr, St Arsenius Matsievich of Rostov.

St Arsenius was actually a former Ukrainian Catholic who returned to Orthodoxy, became a Metropolitan and died a Great Martyr's death under Catherine for opposing secular intrusion into the life of the Church.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:

"No, that great friend of humankind that helped to overthrow the corrupted and rotten mafia controlled capitalism under which Cuban Christians starved, were illiterate, bare footed, homeless, malnourished, with out health care and racially segregated."

So that's the only two systems we can choose between, huh? Right-wing Facism or Left-wing Facism?

I'm not in any way defending the corrupt dictatorship of Batista, nor any of the other semi-facist regimes the US has supported around the world over the years.

Nor am I saying that everything done by the Communists were bad, for example the literacy programs that followed the October Revolution was a good thing, as was the low unemployment in Nazi-Germany, however, in any case concentrations camps are a price to high to pay for these goods, wether they are in Sibiria or "Das Reich", wether they are filled with Jews or Christians!!!

"Who helped establish a system that is more closer to Christian principles than any previous socio-economic system that ever existed in Cuba"

Oh,yes! That same system we had in Eastern Europe, that same system that are responcible for the martyrdom of MILLIONS of Christians.

That system that has caused more suffering and death than ANY other system in the ENTIRE history of mankind.

"now why is it that my side comments always attract more attention than my main point?"

Go figure! Maybe because they are outrageous that they should offend anyone who claimes to be a Christian!

"So, how are things in utopian Sweden?"

Sweden is certainly not an utopia, but we have something called Democracy, and (despite of this, you might say) we do'nt have starvation and illiteracy!

Christian

I probably shouldn't write anything more on this subject, I can feel that I'm getting to emotional and angry for this to be fruitful....

Thank you Christian, and certainly Sweden's social democratic system has been admired by many all over the world for combining social solidarity with democracy (including myself, surprise, surprise!

In Peace,
Brian

"That same system we had in Eastern Europe, that same system that are responcible for the martyrdom of MILLIONS of Christians... we have something called Democracy, and (despite of this, you might say) we do'nt have starvation and illiteracy!

I think you'd like to hear the opinion of a man from a third (or second) world country, which not so long ago had a regime similar to that of the Cubans

I think that those political systems were totally anti-christian and had bad things, but this doesn't mean that "democracy" as seen in the developped West is a paradise on Earth.
A lot of people in the developped world and those who rule the undevelopped countries (they've studied in your schools, so it is not surprising ) see "democracy" as a quasi-religious belief, a world wide cruzade.

The true term "democracy", simple, implies "people will rule," the self determination of the assembled people.
The modern "democratic" states outside the developped West, are not offering the soveraingty of people, only the opportunity to choose between several options that are all the same!

It is a lie, the modern "liberal" state of the New Word Order will probably have the same number of victims that Fascism or communism once had (most of all, children... famine) and: the abolition of nations, the institutionalized abortion and individualism, the mockery of the human dignity, the glorification of materialism...

Back to the topic:

I've always admired the universalism of the Catholic Church. I have to accept that Catholicism offers a universal sense, and the Orthodox Churches are sometimes inmerse in a problem of jurisdictionalism, nationalism, or even ultra-traditionalism. However, unity in the faith is important, it is not possible to be in full communion with the head of the Church because there are differences in the doctrine and the faith.

The traditionalist schisms in both Churches would help us to understand where's the difference.

In the Orthodox East, Church unity resides in a unity of faith. As seen in the Traditionalist -Old Calendarist schism for example, it is thought that if a Bishop preaches incorrect doctrines or opposes to the tradition-faith of the Church, it is licit to separate from that Church or that Bishop (even if he is the Pope of Rome, the first of all the Patriarchs, or a modern Bishop or Patriarch of a national Church).

In the Latin West, the sign of Church unity is the Pope and his personal ministry, Church unity is to be in visible administrative communion with the Pope as vicar of Christ.
The traditionalist controversy is also a good example, in this case the Latin Church says that it is better for its members to attend a parish which is in official communion with the local Bishop and the Pope (no matter if they have liberal practices, or ideas that are opposed to the Holy Tradition), than a parish that has an iregular status but follows the tradition, the faith (as thought by the Catholic Church), the traditional sacraments...

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Alex,

why do you think the Greek Catholic Priests and Nuns were going on about the Pope like this? I would say that Russia has not been very friendly to Greek Catholics. And since Roman Catholic diolague and Russian Orthodox diolugue has begun one of Alexi II's first statements were the Greek Catholics were a hinderance. Perhaps these Nuns and Priests heard this and let their emotions take over.

I agree with you that Alexi is getting better in adressing social problems like poverty, unemployment, and abuse of alcohol. But he is also sponsered by his home government and this is definitely an issue to be weary about.

Has Rome dropped the ball on the dialogue issue, yes. But the Pope is not to blame- but a heck of a lot of his Priests and Bishops are. They have to be held responsible to respect Russian traditions. Am I saying that Catholics in Russia should not be administered too. No! But if the number of conversions are growing very rapidly like they were in Russia I ask all readers to use their God given common sense and look at the issues. These Priests bring with them the allure of Western education, culture, and consumerism. Can I understand Russians going for it of course. But Russia is not the Western American Hemisphere. They are still standing in lines to buy goods, still go to State sponsered Colleges if their State Sponsered Teachers recommend that they can, and once again have a State Sponsered Orthodox Church. See the centralization? Seems to be a Russian theme. But I wish them the best in fighting it.

Democracy is new in this country. It is still shaky. I hope they get more young people who fight this centralizing trend. The Catholic Church Eastern and Western can help here. They can educate these young people as Patriarch Husar has been suggesting. If you educate people they have the morals, common sense, and religious conviction to not allow these heavy handed tactics on the part of the Russian government and will be able to embrace whatever religion they want. And they will also be tolerant to all religions.

Christian,

Number 1, if your going to disagree with something that I said disagree with what I said and don't invent analogies and examples that I did not use. Do not construct an easy straw man that you can just blow away. Arguments such as:

Oh,yes! That same system we had in Eastern Europe, that same system that are responcible for the martyrdom of MILLIONS of Christians.

I did not include any example of Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union [let alone Nazi Germany which was just capitalism in crisis mode along with fascist Italy, Spain and Portugal]; I said Cuba, and Cuba has not killed millions of anyone let alone Christians.

I am 100% anti-Stalinist; any political current or group that I ever belonged to is also anti-Stalinist. Not only in word but in deeds, I have friends (political colleagues) that were in jail in Poland for playing a leadership role in Solidarnosc. We supported every democratic uprising that has ever taken place under the Stalinist regimes; rather it was Hungary, Prague Spring Czechoslovakia, or Tiananmen Square. Now of course I am not old enough to have been able to support these myself; but the tradition that I adhere to is. We sponsored speaking tours of some of the Chinese students for them to go around and speak at American universities.

I know what the Soviets did to the Russian Orthodox Church; working with the 17 long year bloody dictatorship of Mengistu Halie Maryam they tried to do the same thing to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (there are even re-discovered secret documents which "show' that people in the MP itself were collaborating in this effort; I am choosing not to believe that our Russian brothers and sisters had any role that these documents claim).

Christians were not the only victims of Stalinist terror; way more socialists, anarchist and others fighting for socialist democracy were killed; or were you trying to hold a monopoly on victim hood?

If you want to debate someone opposed to democracy then debate one of these opponents of Vatican II.

Maybe because [what you say is] outrageous that they should offend anyone who claims to be a Christian!

What outrageous un-Christian thing did I ever say? Can you quote it please?

Only if one subscribes to this philosophy that to be a Christian one must be a reactionary supporter of the status quo; one must be some silly and fanatical right-wing Republican will what I say offend someone's Christian sensibilities.

Apparently, some Christians here on this forum think that it is entirely consistent with Christianity to support the confederate army (which was defending slavery). Yes I have offended them, and will continue to do so. You apparently are not so outraged by their comments however.

Some Christians think that to oppose the triple no no of sexual immorality (adultery, fornication and homosexuality) we have to align ourselves with hateful and mean spirited bigots, pretenders, and opportunists who wage political campaigns focused entirely on one of the parts (homosexuality) and not the whole picture. I may have offended some of these people, and I will continue to do so.

The Church existed before capitalism, survived through capitalism and if not spared by the Second Coming will outlive capitalism. A Christian is free to support capitalism; but anyone claiming that a Christian must support capitalism to be a Christian is just a liar.

Christians are diverse in their political beliefs. On this page alone we have conservatives, liberals, republicans, monarchists, socialists, social democrats, both right and left libertarians. Heck, if I am reading the posts by one of these contributors correctly we even have sympathizers with the Montana militia here. We are not all going to think alike—get over it!

If, because I am a socialist, you don't accept me as a Christian—so be it. I don't need your validation or approval. Our Church (as hinted in the Book of Acts and confirmed by our tradition) was building, expanding and consolidating for more than 1,000 years before there was any such thing as an established Church in Sweden (and holding the Ark of the Covenant for several centuries before that).

Sweden is certainly not a utopia, but we have something called Democracy, and (despite of this, you might say) we don't have starvation and illiteracy!

That is good for Sweden (though I suspect that you are not a supporter of Sweden's social democratic system). If any third world country tried to do what Sweden did the IMF and the World Bank would go bananas, American and European corporate investors would complain, the U.S. government would set up sanctions if not an embargo and if that country insisted on maintaining its policies then it would probably see the same fate as Chile, Guatemala, Congo, Iran, or Grenada. That is what those protestors you oppose are protesting against.

I probably shouldn't write anything more on this subject, I can feel that I'm getting to emotional and angry for this to be fruitful....

That is why I stay out of these socialism vs… debates. They are abstract, emotional, and ultimately meaningless. I just take sides in the struggle. I am on the side of the working class and the oppressed. When there is a strike you have two sides you can take; the strikers (workers) or the strike breakers (the bosses). Surely you can use whatever rationale and verbal skirting you wish (like when we were on strike at UPS they brought this sobbing lady on national TV crying about her wedding dress being in the parcel not being delivered); but ultimately you land on one side or the other. So you keep supporting the bosses and corporate interests I will keep supporting the side of working humanity; we will just see which side wins in the end. Nothing to debate.

Christian, I do hope that we can some time soon have a civilized discussion on some other topic, but enough of this here. This thread is about the treatment of the Catholic Church by Russian authorities. What do you think about that (you still have not said).

God Bless

Oy! Did I disagree with this? No, no, no, a thousand times no.

I merely said that, wonderful as it may be to join Orthodoxy, IMHO it's even better to become Catholic, because (according to Catholic belief) our Church does have the fullness of the Faith. That's why we're Catholics, right? (Especially for us Latins, it's not 'cuz we think the music's better.) :rolleyes:

:p :p :p May I call you Smart Alex?

Blessings,

ZT

Er, was that called for?

Did I say: Impose Latinization on those benighted Easterners! Turn 'em into good Irish Catholics! Enforce celibacy on their priests! Tear down their icon screens!

No? I didn't say anything even remotely like that? Golly-gee, I guess that means that snide comparisons of Yours Truly with Archbishop Ireland are neither apt nor fair nor charitable.

Know what I mean?

Blessings,

ZT

As Posted by Brian: Try the Roman Curia if you want to talk about centralization!!!!! Dont say that this is a Russian theme when this is definitely a theme in the Latin Church".

Good point Brian! This diologue business does seem to be an episode of when monarchies collide. As I suggested in another thread the best way around it is to allow both Catholic Churches and Russian Orthodox Churches to accept each others Saints and establish inter-Communion across the board. Let everybody keep their existing ecelestacial structure but accept eachother as Orthodox. I cannot totally agree with you on the Russian issue. The ROC is a heavily interferred with Church on the part of Russian politicians. Rome got put out of the political-religious game some time ago. Although, the way they act sometimes you would not know it.

"As there are good Eastern Catholics who fight the centralizing trend".

Thank you for saying that! We do what we can.

Dear Zoe-Theodora,

Good for you!

I like you - you don't take any BS (Byzantine Silliness)

And you're feisty . . .

I say that the RC's should look after RC's in Russia, leave the Russkies alone and promote good relations between the Churches in the meantime.

And they should attend the Moscow Patriarch's Namesday celebration - if they get an invitation, that is .

Alex

Dear Steven,

I don't disagree with what you say - heaven forbid!

The fact that the Russian state is involved with the Russian Church - to quote the Old Testament, we've known that "not from yesterday nor from before yesterday."

The Tsars did that, the Soviets did that - when they got tired of martyrizing the Church and the current political establishment over there will do that.

The Catholic Church herself had the backing of political states in its history, or so I've heard some rumours . . .

As did the Lutheran and Anglican Churches and the Protestant mainline groups in your Grand Republic.

I personally believe that Russia will return to a form of Tsarist government, a monarchy closely married to Orthodoxy, as the two-headed eagle signifies.

And there's really nothing wrong with that. Ultimately, it is in the blood of the Russians and that's the way it always was, and always will be.

We've criticized Christian missions in general for imposing Western European values on other countries and cultures etc.

One would think the West has learned from its past mistakes, but in Russia's case - not at all.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be involved with Christian mission in Russia.

We need to be sensitive to the historic political situation there, especially with respect to the place the ROC has ALWAYS held in the Russian cultural/national system.

That's why I've suggested we in the West do everything we can to help the ROC do its work directly, and not do the work for it.

I think that should be a policy for everyone, Catholic and Protestant with respect to the ROC.

If we follow it, we will show our true respect and love for the great Christian culture and heritage that is the ROC.

I would LOVE to see a similar interest of the Ukrainian government in the workings of the Ukrainian Churches of the Kyiv tradition - regrettably the government there seems to be going against their best interests.

Alex