www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moscow's rhetoric versus a global christian message

Slava isusu Christu!

Dear Alex,

I totally agree with what you have said on the ROC issue.

Regarding Ukraine I believe that the latest rounds of government persecution have shown the Greek Catholic Church who their true friends are. And those friends would be the UAOC. Who would have thunk it? It seems Ukrainian Slavic Patriots stick together. I have not seen a certain Bishop who mysteriously became a Cardinal out with either Church in protesting the governments repressive actions. And oh yes, this Bishop became a Cardinal when 3000,000 to 400,000 Ukrainian Greek Catholics converted to the Latin Church. Or so they say....

The true Ukrainian Greek Catholic and Orthodox heritage is found in Kyiv and Byzantium.

Dear Steven,

Yes, that's "KYIV," Big Guy!

It's O.K., we're all getting used to the new changes over there!!

What you say is true and it has to do with the shared Ukrainian/Kyivan heritage between the Ukies of the UGCC and the autocephalous ("non-canonical") Orthodox Churches.

I've always wondered about world Orthodoxy in this regard, however.

If one is out of union with Moscow, then one is "uncanonical?"

Where can I sign up to be similarly uncanonical?

But hopefully, the Ukie Orthodox will settle things and the EP will eventually recognize them and Moscow will get used to having its house without its old backyard . . .

And to be fair to the Russians, some of the greatest defenders of the UGCC in Soviet times were ROChristians.

And some ROChristians have shown their dismay with the MP by actually joining with the KP.

To be frank, Filaret Denisenko would not be my first choice for Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch . . . a cold fish and all that.

Ultimately, the Ukie Orthodox want their own Patriarchate - something Moscow would never agree to because of the view that there can only be ONE Patriarch on the foundation of the St Andrew legend.

This is why the "Autonomous" Ukrainian Orthodox Church is just that, whereas the Moscow Patriarch is Patriarch of "all Rus'."

"Rus'" however was originally "Kyivan Rus'" and then "Muscovite Rus'" came into being.

It was because the Kyivan Metropolitans ultimately ended up in Moscow for purposes of self-preservation that led to the disconnection with Kyiv etc.

Let the Muscovites keep their Patriarchate - I know they don't need anyone's permission to do so, and they never have in the past.

I wish Ukies were more like them.

Alex

Dear Alex:

Now, I'm beginning to understand the whole scenario.

So, it was a case of "Rus'ing" from Kyiv to Muscovy?

OK, OK, that'll do for now...

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Yes, you are absolutely right.

The motto for Ukies over there now is "Don't be a-rushin' . . ."

You take it slow too tonight, Big Guy, and have a good one!

Alex

LOL, that joke was hilarious, Alex (I'm easily amused).

Dear ChristTeen,

My humour is definitely an ACQUIRED thing . . .

And remember that saints are not saints if they lack a sense of humour.

A little less of the hair-shirt, a little more tickling . . .

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Alex,

how can the ROC claim to be the sole heir to St. Andrew? I believe Bartolomew I the Archbishop of New Rome clearly states that St. Andrew and St. John the Evangelist as well as St. Luke are the lines of his Apostlitic lineage .

Have a great weekend!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:

"I did not include any example of Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union, I said Cuba"

True, you did not talk about the Soviet Union, but you did talk about Cuba, and Cuba was part of the Socialist Bloc, and has, in essence, the same Socialist system. Therefore, in my opinion, you cannot adress one without adressing the other.

For example, in the same way, you cannot adress British foreign policy without adressing U.S. foreign policy, because the Blair administration supports the policies of the Bush administration.

"Cuba has not killed millions of anyone let alone Christians."

Well, for me it less important wether it is millions or "just" thousands.

The fact is that part of the platform of the Cuban Communist party is the eradication of religion, and that Christians and others who oppose the government are persecuted.

"I am 100% anti-Stalinist"

Then you shouldn't be making comments in favor of Stalinist governments.

"Christians were not the only victims of Stalinist terror"

Very true, all the more reason to be anti-Communist.

"way more socialists, anarchist and others fighting for socialist democracy were killed"

I seriously doubt that "way more" political activists were killed than Christians, but anyway, as I said, numbers are less important.

One person killed or persecuted for his opinion, be it religious or political, is one too many!

"or were you trying to hold a monopoly on victim hood?"

Now, where do you read that in my commnets??

"What outrageous un-Christian thing did I ever say? Can you quote it please?"

Well, to me, comments in support of a government that persecutes Christians are in themselves un-Christian.

"Only if one subscribes to this philosophy that to be a Christian one must be a reactionary supporter of the status quo"

Not at all! The issue is not "status quo", the issue is dictatorship.

"one must be some silly and fanatical right-wing Republican will what I say offend someones Christian sensibilities."

Well, I was offended, and I'm NOT a right-wing Republican. The only thing I'm fanatical about is democracy.

"Apparently, some Christians here on this forum think that it is entirely consistent with Christianity to support the confederate army (which was defending slavery)."

I certainly do not! I consider slavery as un-Christian as Stalinism.

"Yes I have offended them, and will continue to do so."

Good! Please continue to do so!

"You apparently are not so outraged by their comments however."

AND WHERE DO FIND THAT IN MY COMMENTS???

"Some Christians think that to oppose the triple no no of sexual immorality (adultery, fornication and homosexuality) we have to align ourselves with hateful and mean spirited bigots, pretenders, and opportunists who wage political campaigns focused entirely on one of the parts (homosexuality) and not the whole picture."

I agree, that is a hypocracy.

"A Christian is free to support capitalism"

Not in Cuba, there anyone voicing such opinions will at best loose their jobs, at worst be put in jail!

"but anyone claiming that a Christian support capitalism to be a Christian is just a liar."

I never said that a Christian must support capitalism to be a Christian, but a Christian must oppose Atheist dictatorships.

"We are not all going to think alike, get over it!"

Again you (willfully?) read things into my comments which aren't there...

"Our Church was building, expanding and consolidating for more than 1,000 years before there was any such thing as an established Church in Sweden"

So what? What has the history of the Ethiopian and Swedish Churches to do with this discussion?

"That is good for Sweden (though I suspect that you are not a supporter of Swedens social democratic system)."

Well, it might interest you that I was once a card-carrying member of the Social Democratic Workers' party, though not so anymore.

Today I consider my self to be Liberal and at the last election in Sweden I voted for the Liberal People's party. I disagree with a lot in our Social Democratic system, but that doesn't mean I want the American style "social security only for those who can pay"-policies.

"That is what those protestors you oppose are protesting against."

I didn't talk about the anti-IMF/World Bank protester, what I talked about was your praise of the Cuban government.

"This thread is about the treatment of the Catholic Church by Russian authorities. What do you think about that (you still have not said)."

Sorry, but it was you who brought up Che Guevarra, not me.

Christian,
the silly, fanatical right-wing Republican Swedish Liberal.

Dear Steven,

St Andrew really did get around!

The story of St Andrew on the Kyivan hills is entirely true however . . .

Why?

I understand this not as a theologian (which I'm not, despite the paper mitre I sometimes wear on my head when I read religious books or post on the Forum), but as a student of social science.

The Kyivan Church understood itself as heir to the tradition and preaching of St Andrew and so carried out a great Christian mission of its own.

That, to me, is the only "proof" one needs that St Andrew's spirit was and is in the Kyivan Church.

Alex

CATHOLIC PROSELYTISM AMONG THE ORTHODOX POPULATION IN RUSSIA according to the Patriarchate of Moscow:
http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne207011.htm

http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne207051.htm

I took a look at the first website mentioned, and I believe that the Russian Orthodox assume they have far more control than they really have. They are attempting to recreate the symphony I mentioned earlier, but it is far from being a reality. A global culture is what is actually emerging everywhere, albeit slower in some areas. Orthodoxy as they are attempting to practice it at present in Russia is not going to fit into this global culture, since it runs in the opposite direction. At this rate they will become increasingly marginalized instead of influential.

Dear Jim,

You are quite right, of course.

But that will take time as circumstances force everyone to change.

The Vatican should pay closer attention to those circumstances and "go with the flow" rather than force things that just won't work themselves out under current conditions.

Alex

Thank you, Alex, for your observation. In time I believe the Russian Orthodox will want to initiate some sort of reconciliation with Rome. It just doesn't appear to be the right time today. Some messages from them are better off left without reply.

Well, I still believe that all men have the right to choose their religion with freedom (this means: no proselitism, but no door-closing) but I am sure that what the Orthodox Church says about proselitism is true.

Obviously it is not the Catholic Church the one which proselitize and the whole Roman Church cannot be blamed for that. The term "missionary" doesn not mean "proselitism". It is not a sin to have native clergy, if people are abusing the rights to be missionary, this is the job of the RC Bishops.

But I have seen how those "charismatic" groups operate in Russia, I have talked to some Argentinian charismatics who regularly work in Russia as missionaries, and I can tell you that they do not look like Catholics, they hold views that are not accepted by The Roman Church and are very hetherodox (I even attended one of their masses and I saw incredible things).
I think that the Bishops of the RC should be more careful with the kind of missions they send.

I do not support Catholic proselytism in Russia. If there is proselytism, then it's regrettable. However, I frankly cannot understand why the Russian Orthodox do not understand that the Catholic Church has the right to minister to Catholics in Russia. And WHAT is this about "canonical territory"? This has never made any sense to me! If Russia is "Orthodox canonical territory" then it can be said that basically the rest of Europe, all of Latin America, much of the rest of North America, South America, and numerous African and Asian countries are "Catholic canonical territory" in which the Orthodox have no right to spread their Faith. Additionally, I think there's a difference between proselytism and the spreading of the Faith. It seems to me that the Russian Orthodox Church loves to make enemies, both inside and outside Apostolic Christianity. All this causes is division and anger (as I am experiencing right now)! For Orthodoxy's sake, I don't want the ROC to color my view of the rest of Orthodoxy, but they sho' ain't he'pin!

ChristTeen287