www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Moscow's rhetoric versus a global christian message

Dear Herb,

what you say is true. I believe some of the greatest sources of tension right now are some Roman Bishop's refusal's to allow Greek Catholics to state the case for their Religion. It does seem Roman Catholics are allowed to freely take their religious mission wherever they want. But the Greek Catholics are only brought in when they are being expelled from Eastern countries.

It only stands to reason that this happens. I have heard from the mouths of many Greek Catholics that the Roman Catholics are not yet up to speed on operating in Eastern Europe . The Greek Catholics are better because they know the traditions, land mines, political situation, and true religion of the people.
Maybe if the Greek Catholics are allowed to operate we can form the largest Italian-Albanian Greek Catholic Church in the world .

Dear Brother Remie,

what you see happening between the ROC and Roman Catholic Church is not going to last forever.

We have to remember that Russia is very new to different religious traditions. For the first time in a very long time they have to compete. I believe many years down the road we are going to see ROC Churches in Western Europe and Catholic Churches in Russia.

Herbigny,

I do not support such restriction of Eastern Catholic missions/parishes and canonical territory. I believe both the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches should be able to spread their theologies around the world. I believe Eastern Catholic Churches have every right to territory in Spain, and I believe the Latin Church has every right to territory in western Ukraine. This shouldn't be viewed as competition; after all, its the same Catholic Church.

ChristTeen287

My dearest Christeen287,

I must confess you that I would like very much to have a Byzantine Catholic Church (a latinazation-less one if possible) in the city I live in Spain but I do not agree with the idea of an Eastern Catholic Church with its canonical territory in Spain. I refuse this idea because I refuse as well the idea of a Latin Catholic Church in Russia or in Greece. The Latin Rite is something completely strange to the Russian Church and its liturgical and theological tradition in the same way the Byzantine rite is completely strange to the Spanish Church and its liturgical and theological tradition. I firmly support the right of non-Russian (Latin) Catholics in Russia to celebrate their faith according with their own liturgical tradition (the Latin one) in the same way I support the right of Eastern Catholics in Spain to celebrate their faith according to the Byzantine tradition (unfortunately there is no Eastern Catholic parish in Spain). But I wonder why should an Spanish Catholic join a Byzantine Catholic parish in Spain if the Catholic Church in Spain would give him or her the opportunity of following the Spanish Rite (the so called Mozarabic rite)? (unfortunatelly the Church in Spain is doing very little for the restoration of the Hispanic rite) Why should a Russian Catholic deny the rich liturgical tradition of the Russian Church to embrace the Latin one? Do not forget that Europe is not America!!! In Spain, for example, most people are Spanish whereas in USA or Canada most people are immigrants (American citizens) who have their backgrounds in the Old Continent. Spain is, from the liturgical and theological point of view, a Western Catholic country whereas the USA is a Western Catholic Country for the Roman Catholics, a Byzantine country for the Byzantine Catholics and the Orthodox , a Hebrew country for the American Jews…That is oneof the things that make USA a great country, is not it?
Yours in Christ,
Francisco

I guess it is important to add time into any consideration of immigrant status. Most Americans can trace ancestry back to some other country eventually, with fewer able to do so immediately. My parents' families both are not recent immigrants (almost 300 years in America), so I do not have another country's customs, I have American ones. It is only where families are one or two generations removed from another country that religion tends to turn to the "old country". Our Byzantine Catholicism reflects culturally on my wife's ancestry, but not my own, for example. I believe that most faiths here, eastern orthodoxy excepted, assimilate cultures into their ethos, even the Byzantines.

I am mildly surprised that no one is looking to preserve/restore the mozarabic rite if only as a means to experience how Spain got to where it is today in its faith. I imagine that there is a richness there that would enhance everyone's awareness of their Catholic faith, not just Spaniards.

(Kind of far afield from the original thread, but interesting.)

Dear Aklie Semaet,

Could you please tell us about the presence of Latin Catholic misionaries in Ethiopia and the character of their mission (just charity, evangelization of non Christians...). How are the relationships of the missionaries with the Ethiopian Chuch? Do you know if there are Orthodox Ethiopians joining the Parishes of the Latin Catholics missionaries in Ethiopia? Thank you very much.

Dear Francisco:

The Latin Rite is something completely strange to the Russian Church and its liturgical and theological tradition in the same way the Byzantine rite is completely strange to the Spanish Church and its liturgical and theological tradition.

I think it is more harmful to introduce Protestant traditions (which are alien to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism) and this has happened in the Ibero-American catholicism.
Things will start to work well for both until we start to recover the true traditions of the Churches, both Byzantine, or Latin. As you said, the rstoration of the Mozarabic rite (and also the traditional catholic mass) will be very helpful to heal the crisis of identity in the Catholic nations, and the restoration of the Orthodox tradition will also help the Eastern catholic Church.

Greetings Francisco,

If it were not for my tendency to click on threads that you have posted on (since generally I like what you have to say) I would have never noticed this question.

Could you please tell us about the presence of Latin Catholic Missionaries

This is a very long and detailed history. Let me start from the outset that Latin Catholics have done some good things for Ethiopia (mostly in the educational field). The Late Emperor's private tutors were Catholics. One of our famous prayer books (for Jesus and Mary) was written by a Catholic. These contributions, along with charity, will always be appreciated. There are some problems with them however. The King mentioned he was constantly pressured to change his religion while growing up under the tutorship of these missionaries and modern Catholic Schools have a Cathedral that they encourage Orthodox Children to attend (without explaining to them the differences).

Ethiopia has seen the evangelization of most of the Catholic orders. Some, like the Jesuits have played unfortunate roles that led to civil wars and the mass persecution of the Orthodox laity. In 1846 the Vatican set up two vicariates in Ethiopia. The north was under the Lazarists and the south was under the “Mission to the Galla” directed by the Capuchins. The Lazarists Mission has led to their being an Ethiopian Catholic Church which is “Orthodox in Communion with Rome.” The Capuchins have led to the Latinization of Oromo (called in their original statement by the insulting name "Galla') culture. This has led to a controversy that lasts to this day.

Relations between the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the Ethiopian Catholic Church (not the Latin one) are improving. The Ethiopian Catholics are bragging about how now, due to the ECC adopting most of the Orthodox Traditions, Orthodox faithful attend the Catholic Church when there is not Orthodox Church around. Orthodox for their part are becoming less suspicious of the "Ge'ez rite' Catholics as they used to be.

Latin Catholics will always be looked at as usurpers by Orthodox Laity. It is the Orthodox in Communion with Rome who criticize the Latin Catholics the most, way more than Orthodox do.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Dear Aklile,

In other words, those of us "Orthodox in communion with Rome" who really "give it" to the RC's sometimes have the most to offer in terms of maintaining our Eastern patrimony!

This is just what I always suspected . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

Seems to me that those of you "Orthodox in communion with Rome" who justifiably give it to us RC's have the most to offer in terms of clarifying and renewing our Western patrimony, too!

Do you think that this is what John Paul II hoped would happen when he encouraged us to learn of the East?

It does get tough to see with blackened eyes, though!

Things get better when the healing is over, at least I hope so.

Thanks,

Steve

Dear Steve,

I fear you misunderstand me, Friend!

When it comes to doing battle, I'm a pussycat!

Just have a "one on one" with Joe Thur and you'll see what I mean!

Alex

Dear Alex,

I fear that I've miscommunicated!

I was writing to say that you and other Eastern and Oriental Christian posters are great riches to us in the West, too. Sometimes some of us, Western Christians deserve a little eye blackening. By that I mean that we sometimes deserve it when you "give it" to us!

It helps to "open" our minds! We have to delve into the Patrimony that is ours and see if it is really what we think it is or if our understanding is too parochial.

I think that this is one benefit that John Paul II hoped for when he encouraged us to learn from the East! I guess we all have much to learn.

Now, as to your being a pussycat.... :rolleyes:

Steve

Here's a recent perspective from Lawrence Uzzell (bio: http://www.becketfund.org/other/Prague2000/Uzzell.html ), who has studies and has written extensively on this subject:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0210/opinion/uzzell.html

Uzzell mentions the bill of particulars, solicited by the RCC in Russia, given by the MP on RC proselytism, to which Francisco recently provided links on this thread. A link to the RC response was posted on another thread:
http://www.catholic.ru:981/lib/ansang.html