www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Violence to the Sacraments

Dear LT,

That certainly would be in keeping with linguistic traditions in the East where the general term is identical with the name for the particular source that first brought it to an area.

So the Ukrainian word for "Protestant church" is "Kirkha" since the first Protestants in Ukraine were German.

The Ukrainian word for "Latin Catholic church" is "Kostel" or the Polish word for "church" since our first experience with Latins was via Poland (and a great one it was!).

And the Ukie word for "orange" is "Apelsina" or German for "Chinese Apple" since oranges first came to Ukraine via Chinese traders.

In India, the Nestorian Christians dress identically to other Indians, except that they wear their sari on the other shoulder.

By this, all Indians recognize them to be Christians rather than Hindus.

In Ethiopia, it is the black cord the Christians wear around their necks (with or without a Cross) that identifies them as Christians - otherwise, if they aren't wearing one, it means they are Muslims!

Alex

I never understood what this meant. I've read the Assyrian Liturgy through, and I couldn't find anything remotely resembling this. What does this mean, and on what basis did they come to this decision?

But Alex, why would this even be necessary? What about restoring traditions and such? Especially when Rome already recognises the current Assyrian form? And "having them permanently placed"? By whom?

Dear Qathuliqa Mor Ephrem,

You are right, of course. (Does MsGuided mind going out with someone who is always right?)

I wasn't suggesting that the Assyrians had to "submit" to "Roman correction" in their Rite - we Ukies have done enough of that in our history, and it was never necessary.

The Assyrians themselves have agreed to this, on their ownsome, in their conversations with their Chaldean brothers.

This doesn't mean that placing the Words of Institution is a "must" in a tradition that doesn't have them. It may mean that the Assyrians really do want union with the Chaldeans.

There are, as well, other Assyrian anaphoras (and how many do the Syriac Orthodox have? I can't count as high as that!), as I was saying, other anaphoras that do have the Words of Institution in them.

And I suggested in my post to our friend, LT, that with greater study of the Assyrian and other Oriental traditions, perhaps Rome will be able to understand the crucial role the Epiclesis really does play so as to understand why the Assyrian tradition can omit the Words of Institution in their entirety.

With you, I too don't know how Rome could have said that the Words of Institution were present elsewhere in the Assyrian Liturgy . . .

But again, this isn't a "do or die" issue with the Assyrians who are on very close terms with both the Chaldeans and the RC Church today.

Most Holy Christotokos, save us!

Alex

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Impossible.

It is also not clear what authority that document from the CU Congregation has anyway.

Most Holy THEOtokos, save us!!

Holy Fathers of Florence, pray for us!!

LatinTrad

Dear LatinTrad,

Do not both the Latin and Byzantine liturgical traditions refer to Our Lady as the "Mother of Christ?"

The Chaldean-Assyrian committees have agreed that "Theotokos" and "Christotokos" are equally valid theological expressions that affect not one iota of the true faith in Christ.

Where have you been? There is now FULL agreement on the Person of Christ between the Assyrians and the Catholic Church.

I guess you would rather go back to the "good old days?"

The fathers of Florence were never canonized.

There is no warrant to invoke them as you have.

Alex

LT,

The Pontifical Council for Christian Unity is a department of the Roman Curia which makes it part of the Magisterium. Its documents are authoritative within the competency the Holy father gives them. If a document is issued, it was given approval by the Pontiff and is authoritative and binding.

The Roman Curia
In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors(CHRISTUS DOMINUS, 9).


Profile for this council from Vatican website:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...rstuni_pro_20051996_chrstuni_pro_en.html

Specific documents dealing with the Assyrian Church:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/sub-index/index_east-assyrian.htm

Texts of Assyrian Liturgies:
http://www.cired.org/liturgy.html

Documents on the Chaldean/Assyrian Liturgy:
http://www.nd.edu/~acasad/papers/THEO_672_3.pdf

http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v12n1/macomber.pdf

Hi, Alex,

Man, I sure can get you going when I want to!

Of course the Fathers of Florence were never canonized--and I know about all the joint theological stuff too.

I do find it interesting, though, that in the past huge controversies, splits, schisms, and wars took place over one word or even letter (e.g. homoousios vs. homoiousios), and now joint theological comissions produce reams and reams explanation about how it all means the same thing anyway. I'm not necessarily criticizing it--it is simply facinating.

LatinTrad

Fr. Subdecn. Lance,

You posted while I was typing, sorry.

A lot to read. Thanks.

LatinTrad

Dear LatinTrad,

Oh, O.K. then!

Terms are what terms are interpreted to be.

"Christotokos" is not an heretical term in itself - but it was used on the side of heresy at one time.

The Oriental Trisagion prayer is not heretical, although it was considered to be so. In fact, today we know that their Trisagion is entirely addressed to our Lord Jesus Christ and not to the Trinity at all . . .

The Byzantine Orthodox have doubted the authenticity of the Latins' Sign of the Cross with the whole hand etc.

And the Old Believer Orthodox have always held the three-fingered Sign of the Cross to be heretical since, they believe, it suggests that the entire Trinity was crucified, rather than OLGS Jesus Christ - and so they use two fingers to denote His Two Natures.

You are right about the one word thingy.

A word can be a powerful thing!

Well, you sounded like you were attacking me.

Not that I mind, you know. I'm not sensitive about those things, not me, not at all, just never mind . . .

Alex

Alex,

Perhaps the Assyrian and Catholic Churches have reached and agreement that "Christokos" and "Theotokos" mean the same thing. But to exclusively use the title "Christokos" gives the mistaken impression that one believe that Mary was not actually the Mother of God, only the Mother of the Human Nature of Christ.

The following is an excerpt from Jaroslav Pelikan's book, Mary Through the Centuries, pg. 56-57:

But, Alex, you are ever the champion of private devotion and prayer to anyone who the supplicant considers a saint. You have done this on the Forum many times. Certainly you aren't trying to censor LatinTrad's apparent right to invoke whatever holy people he wishes, are you?

That said, let the holy Fathers of Florence interceed for us always to the Three in One.

Logos Teen