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Dear Abdur:

But Islam has been triumphant in Europe. Our mere survival in the Balkans and the expansion of Islam into Western Europe is a sign of Allah's beneficence and providence, in our opinion.

If you mean that there are now more muslims in Europe, then that is true.

It will be interesting to see what a muslim will look like after a couple of generations of cross-fertilization within a free, unrestricted, and generally Christo-centric Europe.

I hope that you realize that Islam triumphed in the Bulkans at the cost of Christians who were either forced by necessity, threat, or coercion, to become muslim.

And that is a historic fact.

defreitas

Glory to Jesus Christ!

It is sad to realize that with some 2000 Hellenes left in Turkey out of the millions who lived there at the turn of the century, the return of Hagia Sophia to the Ecumenical Patriarchate may be a mute point. The Turks have successfully persecuted the Orthodox Christians thru forced repatriation, murder, and expulsion to a mere 2000 people. The survivors who remain are primarily elderly and those too poor to move; a few are those too stubborn to move or clerics assigned to the administration of the Patriarchate.

This similar tactic has been successfully used by Islam in the Middle East where many Christians in Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and other countries are abandoning their home of centuries for the land of opportunity and peace in the United States. In Palestine, Orthodox Christians, and Latin Catholic have been accused by some Palestinian leaders as unpatriotic for not participating as actively in the intifadah as do the Moslems. Unless they change and become more active, The Palestinian leadership has let them know that they will be unwelcome in the Palestine State. The various Islamic radical movements have let the Arab Christian population know that their goal is a pure Islamic state like that of Saudi Arabia (or even the Taliban) in which no other religion but Islam is allowed to be openly practiced.

The real question should be---will there be an active Christian witness in the Middle East? Will Christians even be able to visit the Holy places of Jerusalem, Bethlehem , Nazareth, etc if radical Islam becomes the norm in the Middle East?

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Many of our ancestors embraced Islam freely, with no coercion on the part of the Turks, whatsover. Were there those who embraced Islam for opportunistic reasons or because of coercion? Certainly. But one can say the same for pagans who embraced Christianity, beginning with Constantinian era.

The Illyrian people of Albania were, for the most part, only nominally
Christian when the first contacts with Islam came through trade and Islamic missionary activity in the Illyrian lands. Also, Christianity was hopelessly divided against itself and the level of education among the priests was very inferior (especially compared to that of Muslim missionaries) and their morals certainly were in dire need of reform.

In other words, on the dawn of the ascendency of Islam in the Balkans, the Illyrian people--Ghegs and Tosks--had a very low opinion of Christianity and actually their "religion" prior to embracing the strict monotheism of Islam was pagan folk religion barely disguised by a thin veneer of Christianity.

The Illyrians were "ripe for the harvesting" by Islamic missionaries--many of whom were Sufis--who not only would rescue them from the darkness of paganism but would bring law and order to a people burdened by lawlessness, starvation, other horrendous social and welfare conditions, and the constant infighting within Christianity between the Latin West and Greek East, which translated into animosity between the "Latin" Ghegs in the north and the "Greek" Tosks in the south.

In the case of Bosnian Muslims, most of us are of Croatian descent, and not Serv descent as many seem to believe.

The Bosnian religious and social conditions prior to the dawn of Islam share some commonalities with those of the Illyrians, but were not as critical.

Many Bosnians were not orthodox Christians of either the Latin and Greek variety. (In general, Bosnia was a predominately Roman Catholic country with an Orthodox minority.)
But there existed a large Christian/Manichean sect known as the Bogomils. On more than one occasion the popes had called for their extermination and had put great pressure on the Hungarians to intervene in Bosnia and, with the assistance of the Inquisition, hunt down and slaughter the Bogomils. Well..the Bogomils were highly skilled warriors and...you can figure it out!

As you can well imagine, the Bogomils certainly were favorably disposed to the ascendency of Ottoman rule in Bosnia since the Turkish Muslims offered them freedom of religion and the same economic, social, and legal benefits that were so seductive to the Illyrians. Quickly, the Bogomils converted to Islam in mass and our people have flourished ever since. God blessed us with the gift of Islam and we have remained fiercely loyal to Him ever since the coming of the LIght and Truth to the Muslim of Bosnia. Even strongly secular and Europeanized Bosnians retain a strong sense of loyality for our Slavic Islamic culture.


There are many similar parallels to the ascendency of Islam among the other Slavic Muslim and Hellenic Muslim ethnic groups in the Balkans.

In conclusion, I will mention the
Bulgarian Muslims. Since the demise of the Ottoman Empire, they have often been coerced into "re-converting" to Christianity and many of them have been forced to live as crypto-Muslims.

However, since the fall of the Bulgarian Communist regime and the establishment of religious freedom within the country, many Bulgarians have freely, and with great zeal, returned to Islam, even though it would be socially and economically beneficial for them to remain within the Orthodox Bulgarian millieu.

Now,that is a clear sign of the devotion of our European-Balkan Muslim people to Islam and of our gratitude to Allah for His grace and undeserved kindness.

I have much more to write on this subject, but not now.

Salaam,

Abdur

I see: Christians and muslims equals the symmetry of Muslims and christians?

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[Pope Innocent III, the pope who met St Francis of Assisi, was himself shocked by the reports of what the Crusaders did, even though he later learned to accept the status quo.]

That may be so but it sure didn't take him long to take advantage of the situation by setting up a Latin Patriarch. Nor did the flow of the sacred relics, and religious artifacts stop after the initial three days of looting (which was done during Holy Week in 1204). The steady flow of treasures and religious artifacts from the churches of Orthodoxy into the cathedrals, churches, monasteries, convents, cities, and towns of Latin Europe continued.
In fact the looting was so good that it continued for a period of SIXTY years.

And Innocent did nothing to stop the flow of desecrated wealth into Latin cathedrals and churches. A century earlier, after the first crusade, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Edessa were similarly stripped for a period of FORTY years.

After the sack of Constantinople Baldwin of Flanders was put on the throne and a Latin kingdom was established in the east. A Venetian replaced the Patriarch. Orthodox bishops were deposed and replaced by Roman prelates. Pressure was put on priests to submit to the papacy, but they resisited firmly. There was no union.

Dandolo demanded for Venice "one half and one quarter of the Roman Empire" as its share of the conquered lands. Along with other territories, Venice took over all the Greek Islands, (*) which it was to hold for four centuries. On Crete all of the churches were seized, the bishops were thrown out, and the priests were forced to submit to Latin prelates. The Greek language was forbidden in the churches.

(*) It was during this time period that one of the most venerated Icons in all Christiandom was stolen from of the churches on Crete by a wine merchant and taken to Rome. To the Orthodox it is known as the Holy Icon of "Panagia the Hodegetria". But to Roman Catholics it is known as the Icon of "Our Lady of Perpetual Help"!

Sensing that his end was near, the wine merchant gave the Icon to a friend and requested that he give it to a church. On March 27, 1499 the Holy Icon was taken to the Church of St Matthew, where it inspired the thousands of pilgrims for 300 years. When Napoleon enered Rome in 1798 along with other buildings the St Matthew Church was leveled to the ground. The Holy Icon was secretly taken by an Augustinian Monk to be discovered 67 years later.
By edict of Pope Pius IX the Holy Icon was placed in the Church of St Alphonsus, constructed over the leveled church of St Matthew. Today it hangs over te Atar of that church.

OrthoMan

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Dear Orthoman,

Yes, that's why I said he accepted the status quo!

Have a great day, Friend (if you don't mind having a heretic for a friend!)

Alex

[Have a great day, Friend (if you don't mind having a heretic for a friend!)

Alex]

Alex, my friend you may be a lot of things but I would never call you or any type of a (Roman) Catholic a heretic. I hate that word!
You may be a non-Orthodox or a heterodox, but not a heretic or schismatic. Those words are too harsh!

Besides, anyone who wears a double headed eagle pin can't be all bad.

Bob

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Dear Bob,

And don't forget the Crown!

God bless,

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Alex,


Mine's a paper one from Burger King... will that do?

Btw, was at St Edward's over the weekend - t'was the Feast of St Edward the Martyr. The relics of St Edward were exposed and the Kursk Root Icon was there too - what a blessing to venerate both during the Vigil on Saturday and the Liturgy on Sunday!

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Dear Patriarch Edward,

Yes, indeed that is wonderful!

(Paper crowns are O.K. too!).

I'll be on our local TV station doing commentary for the Queen Mother's funeral on Tuesday, FYI.

God save the Queen!

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Alex,


May God grant her rest, but she wasn't a real Queen. The true monarch of England is King Francis I, a Catholic!

Bozhe Tsarya Khrani!

Yup! I meant that! The true monarch of England is the head of the House of Stuart, Francis - who lives in Germany.

Good job I'm a Scot[ by adoption] then