www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Great Cathedral of Constantinople

I will go with Jose de Freitas on this.

Certainly, current Iberian population is the result of a melting pot of Celtic population, Romans, some colonies of Carthago (Cartagena City) and Greeks, conquered by the Visigothics. So, after the invasion by the Moors the Christian Iberians scaped to the North, to the Cantabrian Hills, where leadered by Don Pelayo they began what is called The Reconquest.

Meanwhile the Moors in the South (Al-Andalus) brought the culture and sciences. As long as I have read, the native population was never melted (assimilated) by the Moors.

The Christian North in a long struggle regained the invaded land and founded its own Kingdoms (Castilla, Leon, etc.) until 1492 when they fought their last battle and took Granada, the last Moorish Kingdom.

So, the situation of La Alhambra is completely different from that of Hagia Sophia. In the first case the Moors built La Alhambra, in the second the took by war, but in both cases, they where the invaders and can not fairly claim them.

I think in strict justice Hagia Sophia should be returned to its rigthful owners but I also think it cause more harm than good to the people of God.

Sounds good OC. But while we are here, and being that you are far more knowledgeable about history then I, can you tell me - wasn't Rome sacked by Easterners or Eastern followers long before Constantinople was ever sacked by the West?

And thinking of it OC, wouldn't it be fair going by Abdur's *principles* of proof to equaly say that since the majority of Muslims live under some shadow of suspicion in the West, that that is proof that Islamic adherents are culpable to 9-11 and global terrorism. I mean who would most modern peoples prefer to live under - the Christian West or the Islamic East? Is this to a *proof* of Western superiority of charity and freedom? I mean outside of the IRA you would be hard press to find a catholic fraternal orginization that sponsored the sort of violence that has become known as terrorism. But the Islamic world abounds with Islamic fraternal orginizations that sponsor the sort of violence we call terrorism. So would it be fair to make sweeping statments about Muslim fraternal orginizations? Suerly Abdur would caution me that I was generalizing to much and not looking at the injustice commited by Catholics.

The Crusaders took alot of Eastern women as wives in the holy land. They befriended alot of Muslims also and vice versa. I think it is rather unfair and historicaly innacurate to portray all of the Crusaders as monsters. Some of the fraternal friendship that went on between Muslim & Christian I doubt you could find in the same capacity in modern day wars such as Vietnam. And the Crusaders weren't all that stupid, at least they were smart enough to make their way to the holy land... and do quite a number on the Muslims.
And suerly with the history we read of the Muslim only defending against Western Christian aggression, it is evident by Alexandria. For we all know Eygpt and Ethiopia are in the same direction as England and Germany.

"And the Crusaders weren't all that stupid, at least they were smart enough to make their way to the holy land... and do quite a number on the Muslims."

Good point. I think it was Victor Davis Hanson, in his book 'Carnage and Culture' who says despite the sterotypical view of Muslim superiority over the medieval Christan West, it was a supposedly inferior West that sent troops-several times-all the way into the Holy Land, and was, actually, quite successful. How many times did the Muslims sack Cambridge, Normandy, Glasgow?

MK

MK,

You are right I guess, security would be a big issue. Are the Muslims of Turkey that much threatened by Hagia Sophia that they would have to tar, feather, and kill because of it's return to the Orthodox? The Turks are better then that I hope. You know they Tango in Turkey - the Turkish Tango. Any Muslim that Tango's can't be to hostile or hot headed. ---- (life rules according to Justin)

Dear Maximus,

I hated history in school, but picked up on it after I graduated, so I'm no expert.

(My motto is: Never let your schooling interfere with your education ).

And I knew that your own erudition would lead you to put that point forward about the Easterners massacring the Latins!

So, yes, you are right, Byzantines did do a number on Latins and vice-versa.

The Sack of Constantinople has a much greater symbolic meaning to the Orthodox, than any other "local" battle or atrocity either side committed.

This was the imperial Capital and the Seat of New Rome, of the Ecumenical Patriarch of all the East.

The Crusader attack on the City of Constantine and the way in which they did it was an attack against the very heart of the Eastern Church.

They set up their own King and Western Patriarch in Constantinople, following the sacking.

In the fifteenth century, on the eve of the Fall of Constantinople, the Turks gave St Constantine XI an ultimatum. They said the Byzantines could leave the City peacefully, what they wanted was the City itself, as did the Latin Crusaders before them.

Symbolically, the Sack of Constantinople was the point at which the West broke off from the East, rather than 1054. And that chasm hasn't been breached yet.

As for the Muslims, I'm staying clear out of that discussion.

I don't believe we'll get anywhere with it.

It doesn't matter who attacked the U.S. on Sept. 11th.

All that matters is that the U.S. has the right to defend itself and protect itself against future attacks.

As your President said, all Americans are in shock over the attack, including Muslim Americans.

Alex

Dear Maximus:

It's sad to say but Alex and Abdur can't begin to tell you what happened when the Crusaders took Constantinople.

Everything you have heard is true and well documented.

Rome actually excomunicated most of the Crusaders.



defreitas

Lord forgive us the blasphemy of sins commited in thy name.

Alex,

I have no problem with anything you said in your post. And yes the sacking of Constantinople was the sacking of the heart of Byzantine Christianity. And we of the West should begin to repent for it, in some form offer true gifts of reconciliation.

And I don't think that returning a mosque to the Spanish Muslim community, no matter who rightfuly should have it, is to much to ask for of us Latin Catholics if it means the return of Hagia Sophia to the Orthodox.

And Alex and Abdur I truely don't want to fight about 9-11 or the Crusades, I'm sure guilt abounds, even with myself for what eirther I did or failed to do. But I just mean to point out that there are always two sides to a story... well with the Crusades three sides - Catholic, Orthodox, and Muslim.

Dear Maximus,

Yes, the whole thing is a "two-edged sword" in more ways than one!

My little nephew bought me a replica of a Crusader Templar Sword for my birthday some years back.

(I now have a matching dagger I use as a letter-opener . . .).

The Crusaders were shrewd and the design of the sword was such that they could quickly glide it over the armour of any adversary in search for the vulnerable spots the armour didn't cover.

But again they weren't all that bad and neither was their legacy.

I want a scimitar next . . .

Alex

Millions of us are the descendents of Christians who embraced Islam: European people as diverse as Greeks, Pomaks, Albanians, Servs, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and others, can claim to be the European Muslim descendents of Christian ancestors.


The Muslim Turks can claim that they are the architects of a strong and vibrant Eastern European and Balkans Islamic culture and population that has survived even the demise of Ottoman Empire.

Our faith; art; literature; and our mere survival are a living legacy of the Turkish "occupation" of Eastern Europe and the Balkans and the acculteration of European people into the Islamic culture and faith.

The Crusaders certainly cannot claim the same since their legacy is limited to the ruins of fortresses...and an inordinately high number of Palestinian Arabs with blue eyes!

Salaam,

Abdur

Dear Abdur:

Ah yes...

But then there are the things that could have been.

Sincerely
defreitas

Well if it did happen it's a terrible shame. And that is just one more reason the Latin Catholic Church has suffered and is suffering the image it has developed over the course of 2000 years.

But then it is another reason in point as to why strong leadership and strong moral leadership is so needed in the community of officers when leading young riled up people into military action.

Hagia Sophia was for the people of God and did not deserve to be disgraced by anyone including the Crusaders on *a mission for God*.

Alex,

Marine Corps officers carry a sword supposedly given to the Corps by the Mamelukes.

***

Abdur,

Yes but the Crusader influince was morphed into the form of a Napolianic/British expeditionary force. Which your fair ladies are still realing from.

The Crusaders certainly cannot claim the same since their legacy is limited to the ruins of fortresses...and an inordinately high number of Palestinian Arabs with blue eyes!

Salaam,

Abdur[/QB][/QUOTE]

Aye, but the Crusaders still saved Christian civilization from Islamic domination by pushing the Sarcians back into the near east for several centuries. Later they tried to retake Europe but thanks to St. Puis V and the most holy Rosary of the Blesed Virgin Mary, they were defeated in the naval battle of L....

While Islamic civilization may have produced many wonderous things as far as art and technology go, It still was not founded upon Christian principles and Christ centered. If Islam had been victorious in Europe then our glorious western world would not exist today for the enlightenment of future generations. It was the Crusades that saved the world from lapsing into the hands of the Mohammedans and we should offer up a prayer of thanksgiving for them.

THat God may forgive them of their sins, both voluntery and involentary, granting them repose in the kingdom of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, now and ever, world without end Amen.

Robert K.

But Islam has been triumphant in Europe. Our mere survival in the Balkans and the expansion of Islam into Western Europe is a sign of Allah's beneficence and providence, in our opinion.

If one loves one's religion, one is foolish to cling to the triumphs or defeats of the past. One must create new strategies for the future.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

God you get me aroused.