www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would happen if there were no Eastern Catholics?

Friends,

Recent vailed threats by some that they will leave if... Fill in the blank but it all comes down to getting ones own way. Perhaps ones own way is the correct way. I don't know. But is it correct to offer veiled threats to leave if ones opinion isn't honored? Perhaps I've misunderstood. Perhaps they aren't threats at all. If they aren't I would hope that those who made comments that seemed like threats will forgive me and if you would explain exactly what you are prepared to do to help your Church before you consider leaving.

In this regard I think a question is in order. What would happen to Christianity without the witness of the Eastern Catholic Churches? It seems to me that our mission is greater than either Orthodoxy or Catholicism. Jesus prayed that we would be one, not several. Eastern Catholics are a blessing to the world just because we exist. We are a burr in the collective butts to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism as we should be. Yes, we should have a sound liturgy. Those who know these matters, if you care about your Church, must stand up and be counted. Standing up doesn't just mean shooting from the hip on this forum. It means contacting your bishop(s) and others on the liturgical and putting forth the best you have to offer.

Since I am not a liturgical whiz but I do know something about evangelization my vocation is to help the Church that I've come to love and has embraced me in this area of evangelization.

Threatening to leave only causes scandal among the believers. Put forth the very best you have for the kingdom. If it doesn't have any positive effect, an eventuality I doubt would happen, then you must make the choice to stay or go. I don't know where you'd go. Every other place is down from here, but that's your choice.

I tell my students every semester. Do the very best you can. Solicit as much help as you need. Do your assignments and do them on time. If you can't do this then don't whine. Just leave.

This is the Church God established. We reconstituted Christ's Church in its fullness a few centuries ago. Orthodoxy and Catholicism haven't caught up with us yet. Should you drop out of the race where on earth will you go?

Dan L

I have said several times - on this Forum, I believe - that I have not the slightest intention of withdrawing myself from the Greek-Catholic Church. For everyone's edification, I'll add the thought that making threats is seldom a wise, prudent or sensible thing to do. Besides, it sounds too childish for my taste. If anyone is leaving, Godspeed - but my advice would be to do whatever you are going to do and not bother to announce the fact.

It's much more effective to realize that leaving is a form of surrender, and that staying and refusing to acquiesce in what is wrong is more honorable and more likely to succeed.

However, the notion that a quiet conversation with Bishop X will solve the problem is naive beyond description.

As to the question "what would happen if there were no Eastern Catholics" - well, think of all the monsignori in the Roman Curia whose lives would become so much simpler!

Incognitus

Incognitus,

"However, the notion that a quiet conversation with Bishop X will solve the problem is naive beyond description."

I confess that is naive. I do believe a mass letter campaign coupled with several visits with all of the bishops and a refusal to give until the concerns are heard should make some difference.

But, what if we actually focused upon growing? What if we got our bishops so busy chrismating people that they didn't have time to "fix" the liturgy. Wouldn't that be the most effective antedote to liturgical experimentation?

Dan L

Dan,

I would love to believe this and certainly I thought I did when I was BYzantine but I look at the history of the growth of the Byzantine Churches (Union of Brest etc) and see much of it as political pressure and power play in Counter-Reformation Europe and especially pressure brought to bear on the Orthodox by the authorities of the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania. Certainly, there were earnest people who sought unity at that time but it came from a very flawed paradigm. I will always love and respect the Byzantine Catholic people and communities but I can't see how one can say that they "reconstituted Christ's Church in it's fulness" when the great majority of people remained Orthodox Christians and saw the Union as a deception (not that this view was entirely accurate either but people at that time saw their Faith as under attack) I mean no offense but I just cannot see this "vocation" in the Eastern Catholic Churches that you see.
What does everyone else think??

Just wondering what you meant by that.

Dear Dan,

I must confess that when I saw the subject my first thought was "Don't tease me!"

You refer to the Eastern Catholic Churches being "a burr in the collective butts to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism". At best we are an annoying fly buzzing occasionally around their heads. We are a small enough problem than can, in general, be ignored.

Why are we not an equal player? Because we do not, collectively, know who and what we are. Some of us desperately want to be like *real* Catholics, those of the Latin Rite. Others don't want to be like the Latins, but definitely don't want to be 'Orthodox', even going so far as to fight any change or correction by saying "We can't do that - the Orthodox do it!" Finally, some of us are 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome'. This is what we should be looking from a historical perspective. This is also what we are told to be by Rome. This is what we must be to be a player in this game. Some Orthodox will always find an excuse to say 'no' - forget them for now. But unless, and until, we have the courage to be who we are and to tell both the Orthodox East as well as Rome "We are Churches of equal dignity to you: we will not be told what to do by another Church, nor will we turn to other Churches for permission to do what we must to fulfil our mission to continue the work of the Apostles" we count for to nothing in the struggle to heal the split. Until such time Rome will continue to treat us like little children and the Orthodox will use as us proof that Rome wants to rule all of Christianity.

I agree that threats of leaving can cause scandal among the believers. But is it not also scandalous when people, including clergy, decide that they know better than Synods, or even the Holy Fathers of the Church? How about when a cleric says "Yes, I know what the books say we should/shouldn't do, but we'll do this instead", only because it is easier? When those who want a quick, simple easy church, a religion without challenges, are spoilt for choice, what are those who wish to be challenged, to develop, to grow supposed to do? When they are told "We can't do a full service, some people won't like it and will complain"? How can the full cycle of services be restored when even the most important service, the Divine Liturgy, cannot be done properly? How about a priest making the chanters look foolish because he won't tell them before the service "Ignore what the book says - I'm doing this" or "BTW, we're doing xxx after the Liturgy". Sorry for the rant...

As you can tell, I lean more toward liturgics than evangelisation. Our services are magnificent, at least on paper. They are so full of beauty and wisdom, they spell out our beliefs and tell us of the Saints who have gone before us. Instead we ignore most of this and chop the rest. We are then surprised people are dissatisfied and think there must be something wrong with the services we are doing and they need to be changed. No! They need to be made whole again!!! The books (at least up to the 1940's) are fairly clear on what needs to be done. Sadly, instead of looking at the books and thinking "how can we do what is written here?" we often think "nah, too complicated, what can we ignore to make it easier?".

Some of us try, and try, and try again - often with no success, no support, or even criticism and hostility. Sometimes we try so hard and get so discouraged that it actually hurts to go to one's own church. How sad is it to realise your spiritual health is at risk whenever you attend a service? Yes, there are some wonderful parishes out there. Sadly they are few and far between. Some people can, and will, seek out these communities - others do not have this luxury. Some may just slink off into a dark corner of their own parish or perhaps a neighbouring one. Others may see that a large portion of their Church is not being true to itself and think the only solution is another Church. Within the community of Eastern Catholic Churches this usually means Orthodoxy. Sadly, a few will give up on the Church altogether.

I'll say it again, there is no point to the Eastern Catholic Churches until each and every one of us collectively stands up for who and what we are - Churches. Until then we are no better than the proverbial red-headed step-child.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

KO63AP,

I agree. Part of the Evangelization plan is implosian. It is the first and necessary step. Some of our priests need not to be priests or at least not any longer. At least they need to be challenged to lead correctly. I don't know how many of our Churches should be merged but it would appear that there are several.

Anyway, Father Loya comes from a long line of priests dating back to the days when our anscestors still had married priests. He has much respect for the liturgy. He doesn't discourage people from fighting for a solid liturgy and his worship leadership is most profound. Still, he realizes unless we shrink to our core it isn't likely that we will grow. I hope you will join us on the Evangelization forum.

Brian,

I thank you for your irenic post. If for some reason I decide to leave it will not be for Orthodoxy, RC, or Protestantism. I really do believe, even if only a few others do, that we alone have a vision for what Christ intended for a Church. I find it inconceivable that I would leave but if I do I think some lonely Island in the South Pacific will be my future or at least some hermitage someplace. At any rate, I plan to put my efforts here.

Dan L

Hi Dan,

I've not been posting for a few weeks so missed a lot of the previous conversations. Please excuse as I sort of butt in here. (no pun intended)

Anyway, you wrote in the first post above:

We are a burr in the collective butts to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism as we should be.

Having spent a year in a Byzantine Catholic parish when we lived in another part of this state...I think you are correct here, but you are also so much more than that. You were never a burr in (as said above ) to me. The worship (Divine Liturgy) was the best my husband and I ever had. I know this is not a common opinion of many Latins as my little story below will relate.

One Sunday we missed the morning Divine Liturgy at our Byzantine church so went to a Roman Catholic one that evening. We ran into a Benedictine sister who was a friend of my husband's sister (also Benedictine) and she was so happy to see us she said,

"Oh, I am so glad to see you have returned to the Church and are keeping the faith."

Apparantly she was unaware of the need to breath with both lungs. Or most likely uninformed...

Lots of people like her out there including religious who need to be informed...and lots of people who are hungry and looking.

Here is praying for the doors and windows to stay open and the fresh breeze to come in and out...my prayers for that always.

Blessings,

Porter...

That although a majority of the Hierarchs and part of the clergy approved of the Union, it was the majority of the laypeople that opposed it.

Dan:

IMHO the short answer is that both Catholics and Orthodox Christians would be impoverished. Even thought the paradigm through which the Eastern Catholic Churches came to be is now seen as flawed, you still are a prophetic challenge to both Apostolic Churches to consider the shape of what a reunited Church should look like. And even if there are those who would say that the shape you have is not what anyone wants, you are still standing there prophetically calling to everyone to come up with an alternative. Further, because you are there you make it impossible to put off the tough examinations and praying that will eventually bring us to that oneness that the Lord wanted us to have.

So you're a gift that keeps on giving and we'd all be the poorer if you were not here.

In Christ,

BOB

Remembering that Christmas movie, with Jimmy Stewart and Dona Reed (forgot its name, you know, the one with Clarence the angel).

Everyone, has the potential to touch innumerable lives for the good. Even Greek Catholics!

Bob,

I believe with all my heart that you are correct. We must stop allowing ourselves to be intimidated by RCs and Orthodox. The old saying goes something like this: "I'd rather be doing it the way I am than not doing it the way you are." Let them both complain about the Uniates. Why should we care? Patriarch Maximos IV Saigh, pray for us.

Dan L

It really is "A Wonderful Life." "If it doesn't kill you it will make you strong."

Dan L

To quote Hemingway (Hey, how did he get on here?) "strong in all the broken places."

Really? How do you figure?