www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Pope Kissed Canterbury Ring

Why should you have doubts? Do you not have faith in what the Holy Father is doing? Do you know what his intentions were (not based on speculations)?

Do you doubt in Jesus Christ as being GOD? He Himself entered sinful taverns, places where whores are at, He socialized the outcasts, socialized with drunks, tax-collectors, persecutors, etc. So does that mean He's not God? Since God can't tolerate that kind of things? Does that make Himself "un-God?"

So...think of the same way you're saying..that you're having doubts about the Holy Father. Just because he kissed the Koran or the ring or whatever..does NOT in anyway disminish or lower his rank as the POPE or as a personhood as a Christian leader. In other words...the POPE is the ONLY authority here...not the cantabery bishop or whatever.

So, in conclusion, I think he only kissed things like the Koran or the ring or whatever...out of MERE RESPECT for others. And that all human beings...regardless whether they're good or evil..still maintain to be Icons of God.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Yuhannon,

But I think that many people are perplexed by the supposed (it hasn't been proved) kissing of the Qu'ran because that book "bad-mouths" Christians. Sometimes we and the Jews are called "People of the Book" and other times we are called "the vilest of all creatures." Kissing a book that says this and other horrible things about the True Faith and its adherents has puzzled and even scandalized many people.

Still, like I said above, it hasn't been conclusively proven that Pope John Paul II ever kissed the Qu'ran.

Logos Teen

Shlomo Logos Teen,
Could not Jews say the same thing about the New Testement? Could not we say the same of the Jews since they uphold the Council of Jamia?

If we want War we can always come up with reasons, but if we want peace then we have to work for it. Showing others respect does not make our beliefs any less valid, but instead shows our strengh. When I hear things like what has been posted, I think of Pope Pius XII. Right now he is suffering the slings and arrows of lies and half-truths, but I look at what his actions caused. The Chief Rabbi of Rome became a Catholic!

One of the sayings in Islam is that for one to be a good Muslim, they must also be a good Jew, and a good Christian. Do you not think that we should be encouraging this instead of worrying if the Pope kissed the Q'aran of not?

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

There is a "Big" difference between kissing a person in a sign of respect and love than his ring which is a symbol of an office and authority which he "does" not hold.
It would have been perfectly acceptable if he kissed Mr. Rowan Williams as a representative of the Anglican Communities or for that matter a Muslim.
It was my oppinion that he oversteppend his bounds with such an action and I for one was one of those who was scandalized.
Stephanos I

Yuhannon,
I think there is a lot to worry about!
First of all what does the idea of "kissing" a book convey for any intelligent and clear thinking Christian?
It is an act of reverence and in a Catholic sense recognizing it as a revelation of God. That act in my extimation is a scandal which borders on apostasy.
Stephanos I

As for the intention that was in the Holy Father's heart I will leave that up to God to judge.

A few years ago I heard of an Amishman, a bishop in his church, who through his reading of the early Fathers came to the conclusion that the claims of apostolic succession made by the Catholic Church were true. He approached a priest of the SSP [the Latin Mass order] and introduced himself as an Amish bishop who was interested in becoming Catholic. "Well, first off," the priest began, "you are no bishop" and he continued in that vein. The Amishman left offended. He later approached an Orthodox priest who received him courteously and listened respectfully. The last I heard, the Amishman was preparing for ordination...
Wisdom, be attentive!

Shlomo Stephanos,
I think that I am an intelligent and clear thinking Christian, and I do not and many other intelligent and clear thinking Christians do not see that.

If we believe in what the Catachism says:

841. "The Church's relationship with the Muslims. 'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.'[LG 16; cf. NA 3.]"

Then does not the book that has brought forth this knowledge of the Creator not deserve respect? Did not he show the same respect for the Old Testement in a synagogue? And is not the Old Testement that Jews use, one that came about at the council of Jamia, which condemned Christians and stated that they are worth of Death! Is not this the same council that codified the Hebrew Bible Texts so that they would not support the idea that Jesus was the Messiah.

To quote David Brooks in today's New York Times:
Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Does everyone remember that Dr. Rowen Williams is an honorary druid?

Archbishop made honorary druid [news.bbc.co.uk]

To be fair to the Anglican Bishop I must show this article,

Pagan druid claims anger archbishop [news.bbc.co.uk]

So the Pope kissed an alleged pagan druids Anglican Bishops ring. Did I miss anything here?

Yes. I believe that you do not see the importance of charity (love), which is a virtue that is greater than either faith or hope. The Holy Father exemplified love by the courtesy and respect he gave to the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Admin,

I feel the Pope used bad judgement here. The Pope should have kissed the Bishop but just not his ring.

The ring is a symbol of authority. The pope should not have kissed the ring.

There is but one authority over the church and in the structure of that hierarchy, the lesser always does homage to the greater. What JPII did was scandalous, but only to those who understand what symbols mean. For the massa damnata out there who neither know nor care -- ahhh, big deal. He's a nice-a man!!

That's all that matters, you know. Being nice. To hell with truth.

The question I have is this: does John Paul recognize these things and simply not care for them, or is he becoming seriously "non compos mentos"?

Brother Ed

I'll admit to being a little confused here. Putting aside all questions of propriety for the moment, can someone explain how a gift from Pope Paul VI can be the symbol of authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

-- Ed

Ge 41:41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.

42 And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

Notice the symbol of authority being given to Joseph.

At one time, only rulers and the wealthy had the wealth to wear a ring. It was not like today where jewelry is made for everyone from rich to poor.

Es 3:9 If it please the king, let it be written that they may be destroyed: and I will pay ten thousand talents of silver to the hands of those that have the charge of the business, to bring it into the king's treasuries.

10 And the king took his ring from his hand, and gave it unto Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the Jews' enemy.

Again, notice the authority which goes with the king's ring. I remember being taught that these rings were signet rings and had the ensign of the king embossed upon them. Thus, they could be used to stamp wax seals on envelopes enclosing official documents.

Es 8:10 And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries:

The outer garments we wear signify certain things. This also goes for the jewelry. The Fisherman's Ring is symbolic of the office and authority of the papacy.

Now whether or not this ring, as a gift from John Paul II to the archbishop does indicate authority, kissing one's ring indicates submission to that person. John Paul was wrong. He should have greeted him with a holy kiss if he wished to show his affection.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I like so much to greet our priests with a metany and a kiss of their hand. By virtue of their ordination they are above me and I acknowledge this truth before God and man by this greeting.

Brother Ed

Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

Johan,

Might I suggest that you and some of the other posters are missing the whole point of the Holy Father�s action? His motto is the �Servant of the Servants of God�. Please spend some time praying over the issue of what it means to be a servant. Please also consider the need for courtesy and respect (charity) as necessary to servanthood.

Admin

I have kissed my daughters hamster several times. And it isn't even baptized.


Joe Prokopchak
archsinner