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Mor --

It wouldn't surprise me if there were Armenians in India -- in fact it would surprise me if there weren't. The Armenians have a large and very spread diaspora. I have a few anecdotes of my own on this.

When I was in Bucharest a few years ago I noticed from the window of our cab a very Armenian looking church -- a big one modeled after the Cathedral in Etchmiadzin. When I asked our local financial advisor about it, she brushed off my comment, noting that "no, that's a Romanian Orthodox Church". A day later when I had seom free time to look around for myself I found that church again and, lo and behold, it was an Armenian Orthodox Church after all, and a functioning one. Frankly I wouldn't have expected to find Armenians in Bucharest Romania, but there they are.

When I was in Yerevan a few years ago I had the chance to visit the museum at the Cathedral of Etchmiadzin, where the Armenian church keeps gifts and bequests from around the world. There were items in there such as a Chinese tapestry from the Armenian community in Shanghai. That was also surprising.

At this point, I'm no longer surprised when I hear stories about how widespread the Armenian diaspora is. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were to be a diaspora Armenian community in India.

Brendan

[In recent years, especially after the fall of communism, there has been an increasingly felt opposition to ecumenism from within many of the local Churches, especialy the Russians.]

This is true though the rest of your post indicates you fail to grasp the reality of why the Russians, as well as some other Orthodox see things the way they do.

During those years of communist suppression when they were allowed to have ecumenical dialogue with the western christians they were told by these western Christians that this dialogue was for the purpose of trying to reunite Christianity. That all Christians were 'brother and sister in Christ' and the purpose of the dialogue was to fulfill Christs commandment they 'they all may be one'. And the Russians actually believed this. Because they did, they were under the impression that once they were free again, their western 'brothers and sisters in Christ' would come to their aid and help them to restore their Orthodox Church. thats why they began to build bridges with them.
But instead what happened at the fall of communism? These so called 'brothers and sisters in Christ' who wanted unity so bad invaded the Russian land to set up competing churches. To disrupt the unity of Orthodoxy and to 'sheep steal' rather than support the existing church. They wanted to take advantage of the weakened & improverished state of the existing church to convert their people. And they use every form of deception possible in their quest. Many of these forms have been discussed here recently in other folders. Real 'brothers and sisters' don't treat each other that way.
So, can you blame them? What good is ecumenical dialogue when its based on lies and insincerity according to the Russians? Many of these so called western Christian denominations that were part of the NCC or the WCC are now in Russia claiming the Orthodox Church isn't even Christian.
As for the RCC. Its seen as saying one thing while doing another. Signing agreements and then turning their backs on them. As such, they are lumped into the pot of other 'western Christians'.

OrthoMan

OrthoMan Bob,

I understand Russian Orthodox reaction to their WCC "brothers," but I think they overreact to the Latin Church. If one looks at the numbers, the Latin population of Russia is below what it was before WWII. On the otherhand, the Baptists have 5 million members, five times their number before WWII, and show no signs of slowing down. So I question why the MP goes nuts over what amounts to a change of names for the four Latin jurisdictions in Russia but doesn't withdraw from the WCC and has nothing to say about the Baptists or other Protestant Churches that are doing real sheap stealing and implementing dirty tactics to get them. It is inevitable that some Russians are going to convert to the Latin Church, just as many Latins in the West converted to the Orthodox Church. The Russian Church suffered much, but the Ukrainian Catholic Church suffered more and it survived. The MP needs to quit crying and get to work. The MP should have no problem facing the relatively minor challenges it is facing now. The thing I fear is that the MP has to many hierarchs that were KGB agents that are now only concerned with maintaining their power and lifestyle and aren't concerned with saving souls. I believe in a way the Russian Church is probably going to have to go through the same thing the US Catholic Church is going through in regards to people losing/having lost faith in the Church and its hierarchy. In the US it is because of pedophile/ephebophile priests and bishops that were collaborators through their inaction. In Russia it is because of the MP's collaboration with the Communist government and its bishops' inaction during the atrocities.

In Christ,
Lance

So it is a Trojan Horse, then, is it? Ecumenical diaologue is fine and dandy but if that tactic doesn't work then we go back to straightforward proselytism and poaching? See, I, as an Orthodox, don't really think that's what Rome is doing -- that is, I'm willing to give Rome the benefit of the doubt on that score. But when I read what you have written, it makes me shudder, because it re-opens the possibility that all of this ecumenical dialogue really is just another tactic to bring the Orthodox under Roman submission -- that is, it is the carrot to the more aggressive stick.

Brendan[/QB][/QUOTE]

WEll, of course that is what the Catholic Church sees as the true purpose for ecumenism. There is only one true religion and everyone is suppost to belong to it and it is the duty of that religion to lead people into her unity.
Please do not be mislead into thinking that the Catholic Church is going to suddenly give up her claims to authority and the Papacy, complete with infalliblity, to merely appease other religions into forming some kind of "super church" structure. That would be a flim flam false type of ecumenism whose end would only lead to renewed schism and disaster.

Unity is indeed important, but the Catholic Church cannot simply give up that which she has believed and taught from the very beginning, namly that she, and no other, is the true faith. AS someone who is seperated from her by unfortunate reason, it is your duty to return to her. Ecumenism is simply a new apporach to getting people to become Catholic, not sneaky, but honostly helping other faiths and creeds see that they are presently in error and should return home immediatly to our blessed fold.

Robert K.

"Ecumenism is simply a new apporach to getting people to become Catholic..."

And yet you are suprised that anti-ecumenical sentiments are growing in the Orthodox Churches?

WEll Im terribly sorry but what did you think ecumenism comprised of. Did you think the Catholic Church expoused some sort of masonic branch theory which basically says that one religion is just as good as the other and that we should all get toghether regardless of the doctrines that seperate us?

Ask yourself, if you Church did something like this, what would you think of them? Dont the Orthodox say the exact same things regarding ecumenism as the true intent of the Catholic Church? Is it not Orthodoxys wish that the ecumenical movement will lead the west to their beliefs?

WEll, I know it is, and that view is also the one which is really held by Rome because it is the only logical one to hold. Thats why Ive always been sort of leary of ecumenism in general. It just seems impossible that any real results will ever come out of its work unless some body changes one of their beliefs, and believe me, the Catholic Church is not going to do this.

Im not trying to be cruel or rude to you or anyone else, just honost.

Robert K.

"Did you think the Catholic Church expoused some sort of masonic branch theory which basically says that one religion is just as good as the other and that we should all get toghether regardless of the doctrines that seperate us?"

Well, what does it mean when the pope kisses the Qu'ran??

"Dont the Orthodox say the exact same things regarding ecumenism as the true intent of the Catholic Church? Is it not Orthodoxys wish that the ecumenical movement will lead the west to their beliefs?"

True!

"It just seems impossible that any real results will ever come out of its work unless some body changes one of their beliefs, and believe me, the Catholic Church is not going to do this."

Neigther are the Orthodox, and that's exactly why I don't believe in ecumenism....

[Neigther are the Orthodox, and that's exactly why I don't believe in ecumenism...]

Nor do I...

OrthoMan

Now don't be silly.

None of the members of the WCC or NCCC believe the ROC is not Christian. Both these bodies have been very helpful to us in re-evangelizing Russia. The groups who are most difficult are not WCC/NCCC members.

All Christians are our brothers and sisters. No need for quote marks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OrthodoxSWE:

"Well, what does it mean when the pope kisses the Qu'ran??"


Well, some Muslims believe it means that God has blessed His Holiness and has added years to his life because His Holiness has honored the Holy Quran.

They are absolutely convinced that this is true.

Abdur

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Axios,

I don't think I am being silly. The WCC has both Baptist and Reformed members. The Baptists are the most proselytizing church in Russia. The Presbyterians build churches that look like Orthodox ones to help in converting the Orthodox. Are these the actions of brothers?

I would venture to guess the Catholic Church through Aid to the Church in Need and Caritas has donated more assistance to the Orthodox Church than the NCC and WCC combined. Yet the Catholic Church is the one that is attacked consistently in the media by the MP and accused of proselytism. However, the numbers don't reflect this.

In Christ,
Lance

[Now don't be silly.

None of the members of the WCC or NCCC believe the ROC is not Christian. Both these bodies have been very helpful to us in re-evangelizing Russia.]

Axios: If you believe this then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

I heard one of the TV Evangelists make the following statement when asked about the Russian Orthodox Church - "Oh, we don't even consider them Christian. Just look at the Moslem domes they put on their buildings."

And that is not the exception by any means. If you really believe what you have stated, then I may be silly but you are nieve my Orthodox brother and friend.

OrthoMan

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: OrthoMan ]

Dear ORTHOMAN,

You are right, the evangelists so called see the Orthodox Church more as a pagan institution, just like the Puritans saw the Latin Church as a "Roman temple."

Again, they should try to evangelize their own American society first, before venturing forward elsewhere.

Alex

Alex my friend, they consider us all as pagans. When the topic of their missionaries (proseltyzers) in Russia comes up in the various Orthodox discussion groups you always have these Protestant trolls chime in about how Orthodox don't follow the Bible. Thats the point where I always come in and quote Romans 15:20 to them -

20: And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, NOT WHERE CHRIST WAS NAMED, LEST I SHOULD BUILD ON ANOTHER MANS FOUNDATION,

And ask them why they don't follow the Bible. Particularily the above verse. Why they are building on another mans foundation that is over a thousand years old.
When cornered with this they will always come back with the same reply - "Well we don't consider you Christian."
Thats why I replied to Axios as I did.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

You da Ortomannn!

Excellent rebuttal!

Actually, when an evangelical missionary wants to have a chit-chat with little old me . . . well, suffice it to say that in the case of three, I couldn't convert them to Catholicism.

But I did convert them to the next best thing - Orthodoxy!

And Fr. Peter Gillquist's work was very helpful in that.

But I don't think I'm up to participating in the chat forums.

I'm much too busy to participate in such forums .

Alex