www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Kneeling Is A Mortal Sin!

Me too. Especially the part where people having half the story or less - and no consistency in the story they do tell - draw the most wicked inferences about priests and bishops, and then later admit, that that is because they want to believe it.

If it comes to the point that a parish priest who is lawfully implementing lawful practice is met be organized defiance, persistent, libelous leafleting against him, then yes I think that an accusation of great sin is not inappropriate.

And I will agree, then, that it's too bad that there wasn't a sufficient exercise of "pastoral sensitivity" to defuse the problem. But I will also note that I am pretty much the only one on this forum who ever recalls that the call for "pastoral sensitivity" also applies in JPII "Instructions...". Who knows, maybe there will even be some sensitivity toward Greek Catholics who like our Sacred Heart devotions, or Benediction, or praying the rosary together in public?

AOSB:
I ask that you write about Bishops with less inflammatory language.

Dear folks,

It is too easy to forget that one may speak of an objectively observable behavior as unwise, or illegal, or objectively sinful, and we may surely point to examples of that behavior, or what appears to be that behavior, for purposes of discusion and not at all be guilty of bearing false witness or harboring a loss of charity toward the person or persons exhibiting the behaviors or perceived behaviors.

Hate the sin, love the sinner can be applied to mistakes as well as to sin and we are free to discuss those things as long as we do not make it an attack against a person.

To state that a bishop in any Church in union with the person who is elected to the papal office currently has almost unassailable power, and that it can be observed that all do not use that power wisely, all the time, is hardly an attack on either the episcopate or any particular bishop.

One might even observe that a particular set of behaviors or tendencies in a particular bishop appear to be heterodox, without sinning against any of the commandments of God. We may do that as long as we make no personal condemnations or making efforts to exact a penalty outside of the laws of the Church.

The key to charity is not judgment in the sense of condemnation. Charity is observed in that we do not condemn nor make any effort to exact a punishment.

We need to learn these differences and employ them to the greater benefit of all with whom we converse.

We need not to add to contention by turning these useful, good and innocent discernments around so as to paint them as something inherently wicked. They are not.

Eli

Dear djs,

I have only one thing to say to you . . .

BRAVO!!

Alex

Dear Ray,

I'm not arguing that the issue of preventing RC's from kneeling is contentious.

I'm just saying it has nothing to do with EC's whose ancient tradition, from the Councils, atually DOES see kneeling as breaking the Canons of the Church.

Deliberately and knowingly breaking Church canons is not a good thing. Many would say it is objectively sinful. Historically, the Roman Church has even been upbraided by an Ecumenical Council for allowing fasting on Saturday as an act of pride etc.

IF you want to talk about episcopal authority - that is another thing.

Although, for the life of me, I fail to see anything comparable to the kneeling issue.

I too suspected my current Bishop of heresy - after all, his family was descended from the Second Wave of Ukrainian immigration to Canada.

And, when we met, he initially suspected me of who knows what since my parish is a "Ukrainian-only" one.

But I and many like me eventually absolved the Bishop of that skeleton in his closet and we now love him very much - and he loves us!

And, yes, if you must know, I now teach religion in English . . .

There, do you see what you made me admit publicly?

And as for your new English liturgy being questionable - for me ALL English liturgies are problematic - no question!

But how is it, sir, that when there is an article in the news that goes after the Gospel etc. we quickly attack it and discredit it as a partial, twisted truth (which is no truth at all), and yet, when we get a partialized article on the kneeling issue, we accept it as Gospel truth and go after the bishops?

How is that fair or even Christian?

And IF it were true that an RC hierarch or priest condemned kneeling on Sundays as sinful - would that not be something that Orthodox Christians would applaud rather than condemn?

Alex

Perhaps this sensitivity can be manifested in making the Traditional Latin Mass more available - as that is the point of origin and full celebration of at least the first two of those practices mentioned.

"Sensitivity" works in more than one subjective direction. Sensitivity also needs to extend to those who wish a fuller expression of the Eastern liturgical tradition - say the reinstitution of parochial Vespers or Matins and other services in favor of the Latin devotions - perhaps a sensitivity to actually be doing what has been asked of us by Rome, our own bishops and fidelity to the authentic tradition of our liturgical heritage, with such untapped riches.
FDD

Dear Elizabeth Maria,

Actually, the Rule of Prayer of the Theotokos or 150 Hail Mary's is something that was and is practiced by Orthodox monastics on Mt Athos and Russia - and has been for centuries.

St Seraphim of Sarov said it daily - and expected his spiritual children to say it daily.

It is not a Latinization, any more than the East's sharing the New Testament with the West is.

We should ALL be saying the Rosary every day, I believe - including yourself. I believe that even Protestants should say it and I have gotten Protestants to say it after explaining it to them and sharing literature (written by Protestant Rosary-sayers) and also rosaries.

As for the Oblates of St Benedict, the Rule of St Benedict is acknowledged as an Orthodox Monastic Rule of life - and there was even a Benedictine monastery on Mt Athos at one time, as I understand.

The Benedictine tradition is thoroughly Orthodox and so is, therefore, the tradition of oblation involving laity.

The Western Third Orders are actually a brilliant way of connecting laity to the riches of monastic spirituality that is adapted to their life in the world.

Eastern Orthodoxy HAS the tradition of laity who take as their guide a monastic Elder and learn monastic prayer, fasting etc. from him.

St Seraphim had such a gathering, as did St Nicholas Planas of Greece, St Jonah of Odessa and many, many others.

My copy of the Rule of St Benedict is published by St John of Kronstadt Press and contains the Eastern Canon and Akathist to ST Benedict.

This is, in fact, not a Western influence at all - but simply an Eastern following of the Rule and teachings of our Father among the Saints, Benedict the Great.

My Church has the Order of St Basil - based on the rules of ST Basil. But so what? They are unfortuantely among the greatest Latinizers of our Church.

Alex

Dear Father DIAKon and djs,

As for sensitivity toward Latin devotions among Greek-Catholics . . . just try going into the Eastern European parishes that have them (and a number of Orthodox ones) to tell them they have to be rid of them for the sake of returning to Eastern Christian purity etc.

I think you'll find the parishioners to be less than sensitive when they show you . . . the border!

Alex

Yes, Alex - and don't forget the Cell Rule of 500 of Optina - now that one is serious...
FDD

Anyone who spends much time in Orthodox temples on a regular basis can observe that standing may well be the ordinary posture for worship any day of the week, but that in reality there is great variety of expression in body stance and reverencing by age group and gender.

At least to the point where a first time visitor to Orthodox divine liturgy sees what has been described to me as a disorderly mass of milling humanity. I had to chuckle when the irony of that remark struck home.

Visually, at least, a temple full of people standing and kneeling in rows looks no more disorderly and irreverent, than a temple full of people standing and sitting, crawling and toddling, moving around making large and small bows and full prostrations, reverencing icons and lighting candles at all odd hours, and trailing littles in at the last minute for communion, ect.

So one must allow for real people in this image of the thing we call worship, and allow for distinctions that serve just as well to bring us closer to God, according to the ways of our varied and beautiful traditions.

Eli

Dear Father DIAKon,

The problem is that if you mention "Optina" in some of our Canadianized parishes, they will think you are referring to the Optimist Club!

But yes, the cell rule is serious . . .

I once spoke about the Sacred Heart devotion to Fr. Sergius Keleher.

I told him of my experience praying the Jesus prayer before a picture of same and how it helped me pray the prayer in a way I did not before.

He thought about it and said to me that it made sense - and that I should write something about that experience while "reconstructing" the devotion . . .

Who knows these things?

It is like that Russian Orthodox monastic who said 12,000 Jesus Prayers daily - he said the difference between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism really lies in one LETTER:

The Orthodox are "KaFoliky" and the RC's are "KaToliky."

What do you think?

Alex

So let me get this straight. There are eastern catholic bishops out there allowing the practice of altar girls and a new liturgy with feminization incluive language in it, and instead of asking what the heck is going on, you decide to chastise those who ask what is going on.

How do you think these practices get started? This is exactly where it all begins. And then when restoration is attempted, you'll claim that we need 'pastoral sensitivity' and so that is why feminized language and altar girls cannot go away, because people are now used to them and it would be 'insensitive' to eliminate them.


AOSB,

your quote of:
"...The Eastern Bishops are members of the USCCB, where they are being influenced by the malignancy of the Latin Bishops. For example, Bishop Moskal of the UGCC allows altar girls and Bishop Schott is about to give the BCC a "revised liturgy". Where do you think the influence for these examples, an many others, come from? The Orthodox? I don't think so. The plague in the west is spreading to the east."

is right on the money.

Sensitivity is going to be the downfall of Eastern Catholic churches and it's unfortunate that there are those who are more worried about sensitivity then what is right.

Monomakh

Dear Monomakh,

Actually, I have editions of Orthodox liturgies from Eastern Europe where "Lover of Mankind" is translated as "Lover of Humankind."

"Malignancy" affects even the Orthodox, it would seem!

As for the altar girls, concerned people can write to Vladyka Robert about this and point out the inconsistency with the established rules, and cc the Metropolitan. If enough people respond, I'm sure Vladyka will as well - he is a good man, despite the altar girls.

As for the inclusive language, that too can be handled likewise. I've yet to read that the liturgy has been imposed on anyone.

We honour our Bishops and when they appear to us to be going astray, we may discuss things with them.

I have always done so with my Bishop. I have gone to his home to discuss and even request things in a rather demanding way. I can be emotional in my pleading . . .

And I've always found my Bishop to like the fact that I've taken the time to express my concerns about this or that. When he sees I'm not out to "get him," he will meet me half-way.

But whenever I meet him, I kiss his hand first and then I speak with him.

And all things considered, the EC Bishops are looking pretty good by comparison to what is going on in the OCA right now . . .

Alex

While I wouldn't phrase it as directly as others or label it a plague, I would have to agree that our bishops look to their Roman counterparts on how to "update and revise" as opposed to looking to see what their Orthodox counterparts are doing in the same regard. In my opinion, it's unfortunate.

Indeed, FDD, it must emanate in all directions if it is to work at all. And while I agree, in principle, with most of what Eli posted above, let's be clear: picking up a news story and leaping to conclusions about guilty parties, heretical errors, and excommunications is the antithesis of what Eli terms charitable judgment. So also is the inflammatory claim of malignancy. These are not "useful, good, and innocent discernemnts. (And they are certainly not just "ask[ing] what is going on", Monomakh. :rolleyes: ). While discernments might not be "inheretly wicked", they can, as we do "condemn [or] make any effort to exact a punishment", miss the mark. And discernment that precedes due diligence to get the story, also misses the mark.

ps Alex, I guess I should make that two who call for sensitivity toward Greek Catholics.