www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Kneeling Is A Mortal Sin!

Yeah, I know. I was so fired up about this that I posted about it on my blog, and now I feel like a horse's patootie-- especially after I caustically asked on another message board if Fr. Tran would "interpret" being told to go bite himself as a mortal sin a well. That's one for the confessional... sigh...

Note to self: get the story straight before you get on your "Soapbox."

And Office Space just happens to be one of my favorite movies. I can so relate to it...

God bless,

Karen, who is helping herself to some crow too.

You want that wing? :p

For the sake of context, the �clarification� on the Diocese of Orange website appears rather selective in quoting the text of Fr. Tran�s communication to his parishioners. I say this based on the information imparted by Catholic Answers apologist Jimmy Akin in his article �Totally Absolutely 100% Crazy� ( www.jimmyakin.org [jimmyakin.org] ):

Here's what Fr. Tran actually said in context:

�As I said before, Liturgy is the "public worship" of the Church whose authority belongs only to Rome, the National Conference of the Catholic Bishops and the local Bishop, and not a private worship or business which belongs to any person(s) or group that can take it into their own hands by intentionally setting their own norms, disregarding the permission from the local Bishop or despising the authority of the local Bishop, the National Conference of one's country. That is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin, separating oneself from the Church.�

Fr. Tran goes on--immediately after the paragraph quoted above--to state:

�The reason for this is that all the current liturgical norms of the Diocese and of the U.S. are officially recognized and allowed by Rome. Furthermore, Fr. Johnson was allowed only to have the Tridentine Mass here at St. Mary's with its own norms: communion by tongue, with one species, no sign of peace, kneeling after "Agnus Dei� Lamb of God... that some parishioners here name that "traditions" of St. Mary's. Besides, Fr. Johnson allowed other liturgical practice/norms belonging to the Tridentine Mass to be applied to other Masses of Vatican II, including the Novus Ordo Mass: that is not correct. For it was out of line with the current liturgical norms of the Diocese. These have to be changed. Fr. Sy and I were appointed by the Bishop, working together with the Bishop to re-establish the liturgical norms at St. Mary's to be in line with the current liturgical norms of the Church in America and of the Diocese (allowed by Rome). And this binds all with total obedience.�

�As one family, all of us have the responsibility to correct our disobedient brothers and sisters. If they do not listen, that is their serious problem!�

~Isaac

hmmm...after reading the Jimmy Akin article, maybe I'll only eat half of the crow...

According to this article,
http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/03/unusual_canon_l_1.html ,
an American Latin Rite bishop is allowed to prohibit kneeling after the Agnus Dei.

Here is the pertinent quote:

Apparently, the Latin Rite bishop of Orange, California, did decide to require standing after the Agnus Dei.

Therefore, it seems to me that obedience requires that the Latin Rite Catholics of that diocese should stand after the Agnus Dei.

-- John

All,

I hate to say I told you so, but...

We should not be so quick as to go off on something like this without checking to see if there is another side of the story. As I hinted last night (I probably should have used a baseball bat) , everyone seemed to be getting worked up over a single story from a secular source, that had no connection with the church. Remember in such cases they are out for only one thing, to sell newspapers.

The uproar and emotion spent on this thread can be equated as a scandal. Posters were literally at each others throats over something that was not even presented correctly. I have been working with education and history for many years now. The first thing you are taught is to check the facts. Hopefully, we will do this in the future on any other news item that seems to be of the same light. 95 posts in 30 hours is crazy on a presumption of poorly reported facts.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator

PS Gordo if you marinate the crow overnight, it may be a little more tastier and easier to chew . Karen, I really have no suggestions for your situation

Actually, since I'll be in Japan for a bit starting on Friday, the crows are roughly the size of German Shepherds. It may take me six months to go through just one!

Like wayward posters such as myself, these are attack birds, harping on hapless victims, chasing bikes and small animals...even derailing trains. Their crowing can be heard throughout the city as they prowl in the air for unsuspecting Japanese businessmen who can be seen from time to time saying goodbye to their loved ones on their cell phones as they are carted off into the sunset for an uncertain and certainly unwelcome fate.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s321485.htm

I hear horseradish helps too.

Gordo

I told you guys so . . .

Aregato, Gordo!

A good trip to the Empire of Japan!

Alex

Would not be quite so quick to dust off a pastoral issue like this as a juridical one that is none of our business.

Perhaps that is why there's too often too little compassion in evidence for us who seem to have a tendency to duck compassion for others who are barely blips on our own personal radar.

There's a history here that should not be ignored or relegated to a matter of law.

I have been told all these years, and I had thought that the east looked to the faith first and the law later, :p if at all.

Good night, God bless.

Eli

I have to state (and some posters are probably going to blow at the rest of this statement) that is an angle that should be looked at and discussed intelligently and charitably (I had to get that one in) .

We have got the facts straight now regarding the situation, but in the heat of debate never fully developed and expounded upon this point. Two different perspectives were presented and the others were expected to fully understand the points made.

In a way I had hoped this thread was finished, but I think that maybe an educational and hopefully edifying discussion can take place on this point. I pray that we can leave the emotions behind and that this can truly help us develop a clearer understanding of who we are and how we perceive things both in the East and the West.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator

It is possible through all the press that this priest retracted his earlier comments. After all another priest was quoted as supporting the original priest comments.

Has the article clarified that other priest comments?

Ray,

What press? It was only reported in the LA Times once. I have not seen it in any other news media other than that. We have probably have given the matter more space than either of the sides involved. Even the diocesan website will tell you were it appeared. According to what I read earlier this evening, and they did include the text of the original bulletin in the diocese release, the statements were taken out of context.

You may want to look at the release from the Diocese of Orange California's website and the other links provided. The quotations are also from the priest clarifying what was taken out of context and in what manner it was originally intended.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I have finally read all of the posts (*pant*pant*pant*)

I think that there may be some confusion of the history of kneeling. How many on the Forum have been to Rome?

How many have visited the 4 Patrirchal Basilicas?

St. Mary Major was built in the late 4th early 5th centuries.

http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen/fullscreen46.html

St. John Lateran was founded by Constantine the Great and is the Cathedral of the Pope:

Link [images.google.com]

St. Paul Outside the Walls was built in the 4th century and rebuilt in 1823 after a fire.

http://www.wdbydana.com/rome/StPaulnave.jpg

St. Peter's was built only 500 years ago above the site where a basilica built by Constantine stood. Which archeologists have found the bones of St. Peter in the Crypt.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Scenes/St_Peters.html

What do you notice?


No Pews......

No kneelers!


I wish I could have found more panoramic links like the one for St. Mary Major!

Also, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm

Kneeling wasn't introduced into the West until the Middle Ages, coincidentally as was the Elevation of the Host. Probably had to do with the doubts of the True Presence in the Holy Eucharist.

http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm

http://www.idrink.com/drinks/Jamaican_Crow.htm

http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041216/IDOUT/412160333/1136/IDOUT

One of these sites is for a very nice Crow that many will be only to happy to consume