www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What would make you Orthodox?

Yes, of course. However, the nuance is very important here! Why is Peter called in our liturgical texts, "the foundation of our faith," even "the father of us all"? It is he alone who is the "Rock," the "foundation," the "father," the "first," (etc) because he is the first "believer" to openly proclaim faith in Christ. He is the first to proclaim that Jesus is the Christ. He is the first in a long lineage of Christian believers. Therefore, his faith is the bedrock, the foundation, the rock, of the Church. But, it is his faith, which is the Rock on which the Church is built, not Peter the person, Peter the one who proclaimed faith in Christ. People have faith, so you cannot separate it from him. You have to understand the emphasis here.

Priest Thomas

Dear Friends,

Although I will fight the earthy temptation to want to beat out the number of posts that Anastasios got for his Filioque thread, I think we've done this topic to death, and as someone has already said, have gotten off topic with the polemics.

I call on whoever isn't still suffering from a hangover today to close this thread.

For my part, I much rather prefer to work on akathists than engage in polemics.

Alex

Hi, Alex! With all due respect, I don't think Father Thomas's last two posts should go unanswered. But I agree that we should probably adjourn to a separate thread for that discussion.

For a Catholic (whether Latin or Eastern), apologetics and ecumenism necessarily go hand in hand. IMHO, we cannot promote Christian unity by soft-pedaling Catholic core beliefs; by blurring distinctions between communions; or by pretending that it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, whether we're Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

I guarantee that our Orthodox brethren would not take such a loosey-goosey approach to ecumenism. :p Leastwise, the Orthodox folks I encounter over the Internet -- including here at the byzcath,org forum -- wouldn't be quite so cavalier about the question of which communion has the fullness of the Faith. Heck, most of my Internet Orthodox buddies won't even concede that we Catholics have valid Sacraments, fer cryin' out loud. :eek And most of 'em consider us Catholics heretics, too. Furthermore, they seem to have no compunction about expressing such views on fora such as this one.

I wouldn't dream of challenging their right to do so. If they sincerely believe we're heretics who lack valid Sacraments, they should be perfectly free to say so. Soft-pedaling or diplomatically concealing such beliefs does not serve the cause of Christian unity. We'll never resolve our differences if we don't know what those differences are.

For my money, it's been very enlightening for me to discover that some Orthodox jurisdictions require re-chrismation for already-confirmed converts from Catholicism. I never knew this before I started hanging out at message boards like this one! And I do think it's an important thing to know. Whether one is engaged in apologetical polemics or ecumenical dialogue, one needs to know what one is up against.

Anyhoo, I agree that -- even if we bluntly discuss the differences between our two communions -- we should do so in a way that's sensitive, compassionate, winsome, and charitable. That's the stuff I have to learn. A fundamentalist guy once told me I had "zeal but not according to knowledge." I suppose my EO chums could just as justly say that I have zeal but not according to charity.

However, be that as it may, even while I'm struggling to temper my zeal with charity, I still must bear witness to the truth as expressed in official Church documents like Lumen Gentium, The Decree on Ecumenism, and Dominus Iesus. And that truth is simply this: that the Catholic Church in communion with Peter's successor represents the fullness of the faith. As Dominus Iesus puts it, Eastern Orthodoxy "lacks little of that fullness." But it still lacks something, from the Catholic perspective. And that something is union with the papacy.

If this strikes my EO brethren as condescending or whatever...well, I would beg them to consider their own jurisdictions' attitude toward us Catholics, which is very likely much less ecumenical...and a good deal blunter, too!

And now, I'd like to start a fresh thread in order to consider the points raised in Father Thomas's most recent posts.

Thanks and God bless, y'all!

ZT

Dear Zoe,

Thanks for restraining yourself on the polemics, Theodora!

As for your new thread, "Go Zoe!"

Alex

Zoe,

I have found in my approach into Orthodoxy that the online Orthodox can be the most extreme. They are nothing like the balanced people who actually live Orthodoxy in the parishes who I meet every Saturday for Vespers and for Sunday Liturgy among other services. So I would take the online ones with a big grain of salt and concentrate on what is going on , on parish level,e.g. the Holy Mysteries, the Liturgical Life, which is the very foundation of Orthodoxy.

Peace,
Brian

Dear Brian,

Excellent point!

People who spend too much time on chat forums can be off-putting, at times . . .

Not counting you and I and Zoe, that is!

Alex

Brian, thank you for this much-needed caveat.

I think I should hang out at Annunciation Greek Orthopdox Church here in Winston-Salem just to get "de-programmed" from my discussions with Internet Orthodox. :lol:

Thanks again!

And Alex, you sure do write beautiful Akathists!

Blessings,

ZT

Blessings and Peace to you, Zoe and (Spiritual Father) Alex

Zoe,

It's beautiful up there! Last year (my freshman year) my high school visited some college up there. The girls visited an all-girl college and us boys visited the all-boys college; it may have beeb called Roanoke College. Sound familiar?

ChristTeen287

Dear Zoe and Brian,

Thank you for your kindness, Zoe!

And, Brian, while I'm no spiritual father, if I were one to you, I'd certainly not make you do prostrations before the icon of the Royal Martyrs of Russia . . .

Alex

I have never had a chance to read this book by James Likoudis, which I would like to do, but I have seen a response to him on Let Us Attend Orthodox Apologetics site at http://www.gbronline.com/suaidenhouse

I will have you know that I did my homework before I made my choice, and I made the right one. I will not give up my Orthodox faith for anything! I love it!

When I was still RC, I considered the Byzantine Catholic Church. However, it seemed to me that BC's are one minute criticizing the Orthodox and defending Rome, and the next minute the other way around. I did not want to live that way-being pulled between two worlds.

My journey out of Roman Catholicism into Orthodoxy was not made out of convenience. It was a painful, heart-stomping, gut-wrenching journey, and continues to be so. I love the Catholic Church, and if I hear someone bashing the RCC, I become angry, and will try to defend it. By becoming Orthodox, I didn't reject the Catholic faith, but rather embraced it in it's fulness.

Happy New Year, pray for unity! Love one another!

Interesting thread!

First, I should probably say a few words about James Likoudis, Jaroslav Pelikan and Frank Schaeffer.

I have always found Frank Schaeffer to be very curious. Even though he has embraced Orthodoxy he still comes across as a fundamental Protestant. I remember when I first read �The Christian Activist� my first thought was that it was interesting that a fundamental Christian included a few articles by Orthodox authors. It was only after reading a number of issues that I realized that he was actually Orthodox. Even today his style is still the same. He seems to define Orthodoxy in terms of what it rejects in Catholicism rather than in what it professes. I am glad that he embraced Orthodoxy (though, of course, I would have preferred that he embraced Orthodoxy in communion with Rome!). But his style is not one that I appreciate. Maybe it speaks more clearly to those who come from his starting point?

Jaroslav Pelikan has always been first rate. I have not come across anything written by him discussing his journey.

James Likoudis seems to be the counterpart to Schaeffer. He is so focused on being anti-Orthodox that he forgets the beauty of Orthodoxy that the Holy Father calls attention to in �Orientale Lumen�.

I won�t get into the discussion of petrine authority. My views are already well known and I�m awfully busy today!

--

Jeff,

Welcome to The Byzantine Forum!

Forgive me for pointing this out but in one paragraph you condemn Byzantine Catholics for exactly what you then tell us that you do yourself! It always seems to me that all of us have fallen short and need to repent and pray for the restoration of full communion between East and West.

Admin

Dear Jeff:

Believe me, I appreciate the anguish and difficulty of your move from Catholicism to Orthodoxy. Nonetheless, I cannot help being deeply saddened, because I am convinced you have made a mistake. If you'd been an evangelical Protestant moving "up" to Orthodoxy, I wouldn't feel saddened this way. But when a Catholic becomes Orthodox, I do. I can't help it! I'm sure you probably feel the same way when Orthodox become Catholics, since you're just as convinced that Orthodoxy = Catholic fullness as I am that Catholicism = Catholic fullness.

In any event, I've found that the best thing to do when I hear of situations like yours is to pray. I have a long list of people whom I regularly pray for. I like to pray for them in front of a lovely statue of Our Lady of Gudalupe at our parish -- she looks so kind, and she is, after all, the Mother of Unity! I will add you to my prayer-list, if you don't mind, and commend you to the tender Immaculate Heart of la Guadalupana, patroness of the Americas.

Please pray for me as well. Thank you and God bless you!

ZT

[Dear Moderator:

I agree that James Likoudis is perhaps closer to Franky Schaeffer than he is to Jaroslav Pelikan ... simply because both Likoudis and Schaeffer are essentially polemicists rather than scholars.

However, there, I think, all resemblance between Likoudis and Schaeffer ends.

I do think Likoudis is much more balanced, more temperate, and yes, more ecumenical than Mr. Schaeffer. IMHO, Schaeffer frequently goes right over the top with his anti-Catholic rhetoric. As you note (and as my cyber-pal Edwin Tait also noted), Schaeffer is still pretty fundamentalist. He is still operating out of an "anti-papist" Calvinist context, but with smells and bells, I guess.

I don't think the equivalent can be said of Mr. Likoudis. Although I sometimes wish that Likoudis would moderate his language a bit -- e.g., by refraining from referring to the Orthodox as "dissidents" :p -- nonetheless I think he is a model of decorous civility compared with Franky Schaeffer.

In any case, I think Likoudis's arguments should be engaged on their own terms. Rather than pre-judging his arguments based on what we think of his personality, we should try to evaluate the arguments on their merits. E.g., does Likoudis accurately show that Whelton has mishandled the patristic evidence (by leaving ourt key passages)? That is the question. If Likoudis convincingly shows this -- if Whelton has indeed mishandled the primary evidence -- then that is a powerful argument against Whelton's conclusions. And it remains a powerful argument no matter who is making it.

I wish I could present Mr. Likoudis's arguments without citing the source so that folks could assess the arguments on their own terms. But that would violate Mr. Likoudis's copyright, a big moral and legal no-no. Oh well!

Blessings & happy New Year!

ZT

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

" I think we've done this topic to death, and as someone has already said, have gotten off topic with the polemics.

I call on whoever isn't still suffering from a hangover today to close this thread."

I thank our good friend Alex for his comment, and for his suggestion. I would tend to agree. I find topics of more than ten pages quite difficult. They are usually hard to follow, and people begin to repeat themselves, or wander off topic.

I thank our esteemed Administrator for his thoughts on the authors in question. I am sure that their writings, or other matters raised in this thread, could properly become threads (properly titled). I invite anyone who wants to initiate these or any other discussion, to open a new thread.

Thanking all those who have posted in this thread, my I make my offering to the original question, and offer my response? It is impossible to become Orthodox, if one is Orthodox.

Elias