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#11705 05/30/06 04:44 PM
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Ray S. Offline OP
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A Ban on Kneeling? Some Catholics Won\'t Stand for It [latimes.com]

Subscription required for LA Time article.

Quote
At a small Catholic church in Huntington Beach, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner?

Kneeling " is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin ," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict.
The article continues...

Quote
The debate is part of the argument among Catholics between tradition and change. Traditionalists see it as the ultimate posture of submission to and adoration of God; modernists view kneeling as the vestige of a feudal past they would like to leave behind.
The article continues...

Quote
"It's hard to understand why any bishop would prohibit his people from expressing reverence in the way they have done for centuries," said Helen Hull Hitchcock, a founder of the conservative Adoremus Society for the Renewal of Sacred Liturgy in St. Louis.
My comment:
This priest needs to be excommunicated. Rather, the priest has already excommunicated himself by preaching heresy that kneeling is a mortal sin. This raises a question as to whether his Liturgy is even licid.

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Dear Ray,

Aren't you happy that we're Orthodox? smile

Alex

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For those truly interested here is a link & info from CWNEWS...


http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=3626

PAX
james

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Here's Canon XX from the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea:

"Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one's prayers to the Lord standing."

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm

And another version from Fordham University:
CANON XX.

FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's
Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things
may be uniformly observed everywhere(in every parish), it seems good
to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

NOTES.

ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XX.

On Lord's days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not
kneeling.

HAMMOND.
Although kneeling was the common posture for prayer in the primitive
Church, yet the custom had prevailed, even from the earliest times, of
standing at prayer on the Lord's day, and during the fifty days between
Easter and Pentecost. Tertullian, in a passage in his treatise De Corona
Militis, which is often quoted, mentions it amongst other ohservances
which, though not expressly commanded in Scripture, yet were
universally practised upon the authority of tradition. "We consider it
unlawful," he says, "to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord's day;
we enjoy the same liberty from Easter-day to that of Pentecost." De
Cor. Mil. s. 3, 4. Many other of the Fathers notice the same practice,
the reason of which, as given by Augustine; and others, was to
commemorate the resurrection of our Lord, and to signify the rest and
joy of our own resurrection, which that of our Lord assured. This
canon, as Beveridge observes, is a proof of the importance formerly
attached to an uniformity of sacred rites throughout the Church, which
made the Nicene Fathers thus sanction and enforce by their authority a
practice which in itself is indifferent, and not commanded directly or
indirectly in Scripture, and assign this as their reason for doing so: "In
order that all things may be observed in like manner in every parish"
or diocese.

HEFELE.
All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in
the Acts of the Apostles(xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed
kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.

This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III,
De Cone. Dist. III. c. x.

[43]


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

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Ray S. Offline OP
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Dr. Eric,

That is nice for the Churches of the East. The Western Church has evolved differently.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). no. 21, requiring that people:
Quote
should kneel at the Consecration unless prevented by lack of space, large numbers, or
other reasonable cause.
For a priest to instruct his people that kneeling is a Mortal sin is in fact a Mortal sin. The priest in question is teaching heresy. Kneeling whether in the East or West is NEVER a mortal sin. It may be disobediant but it is NEVER a mortal sin.

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djs Offline
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If the LA Times has it correctly, kneeling at Consecration is not prohibited.

Ray, why do you think that acts of disobedience such as these - in your face at the Mass - cannot rise to the level of mortal sin?

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Ray S. Offline OP
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djs,

Quote
Ray, why do you think that acts of disobedience such as these - in your face at the Mass - cannot rise to the level of mortal sin?
When a person becomes tired standing and sits down in an Eastern Church is that person sinning? What about children sitting on the floor listening to a priest homily is that a sin?

If a person is so compelled at the moment to kneel before our Lord how is that a Mortal sin? How is kneeling before our Lord ("Every knee shall bend") going to cause that person an eternity in Hell?

My question to you: Are you serious in asking me this?

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Ray S. Offline OP
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Here is another article that doesn't require a subscription:

A Ban on Kneeling? Some Catholics Won\'t Stand for It [wb32tv.trb.com]

Interesting more priest believe kneeling is a mortal sin:
Quote
Father Joe Fenton, spokesman for the Diocese of Orange, said the diocese supports Tran's view that disobeying the anti-kneeling edict is a mortal sin. "That's Father Tran's interpretation, and he's the pastor," he said. "We stand behind Father Tran."

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My point was that kneeling is not a mortal sin. The Canon says that for uniformity of worship people should stand.

The USCCB ruled so that uniformity be maintained everyone should bow before receiving communion.

Here the rules are also uniform during the Eucharistic Canon. Kneeling is to be maintained from after the Sanctus to the Great Amen.

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Kneeling " is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin ," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.

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Quote
Originally posted by ukrainiancatholic:
Quote
Kneeling " is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin ," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
A Michael Savage Fan? wink

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Quote
Originally posted by Ray S.:
Subscription required for LA Time article.

[QUOTE] At a small Catholic church in Huntington Beach, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner?

Kneeling " [b]is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin
," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict. [/b]
This is so laughable. I thought progressives (I doubt this priest is trying to restore the ancient tradition in this case...) were all about freedom. AND YET, he plays the ever omnipresent Latin "mortal sin" card.

Some people make better porters than pastors.

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Dear Ray,

DJS is quite serious! smile

And in a number of our UGCC parishes up here, if one DIDN'T kneel on Sundays - that would be considered a mortal sin for sure (to be expiated by auricular confession, due satisfaction and works of penance and the effort to obtain at least one plenary indulgence . . .).

Alex

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So sad, more Latin Church bashing.

I wish the moderators were as quick to jump on this as they are when Latin Catholics come on here and bash the Orthodox Churches.

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Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
So sad, more Latin Church bashing.

I wish the moderators were as quick to jump on this as they are when Latin Catholics come on here and bash the Orthodox Churches.
David,

For your information, the moderators all have to have outside employment that does require their attention. When I left for the office this morning this thread was not there. I have been on teleconferences and meetings until now.

I am now warning all posters that if this can not be discussed in informed and charitable manner, this thread will be closed off.

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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