www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Kneeling Is A Mortal Sin!

Bless, Father Anthony,

Actually, I don't have other employment right now - I would make for an excellent full-time Moderator!

Latin Church-bashing is always bad - but sometimes it is difficult to determine what constitutes such "bashing."

The reason for this is the Liberal/Conservative RC divide that plagues our Latins up here as well.

The Liberals come forward with something that the Conservatives deride - the Liberals condemn the Conservatives and the Conservatives do an anathema on them etc. etc.

So to take either side would make one a "basher" of some sort . . .

But your ruling is correct here (and always) and this is not meant to question it - only to extend the conversation.

As for civility, I wish more posters would follow the example of veteran posters here who always get along with everyone . . .

And, no, I'm not referring to myself . . .

I'll be in the garden, if you need me . . .

Br. Alex fCS

Alex, Christ is Risen!

That I have little say in regarding appointments as moderators.

All,
As for the offending post, I have found it to be in extremely bad taste and to be uncharitable. I have since deleted it.

I again state that if this can not be discussed in a charitable and informed way, I will close the thread off.

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator

Right now I have to get some things wrappped here in the office before I have to celebrate vespers.

Father Anthony,
Please forgive my comments. I apologize and should not have made such a disparaging comment against the moderators all of who have been very nice to me and are quick as they can be.

It just seems that lately this forum has taken on a very anti-catholic, yes, anti-catholic, bent. Seems some Byzantine Catholics have either forgotten they are members of the same universal Church as Latin Catholics or that they wish to show the Orthodox how non-catholic they are.

Just as Latin Catholics should not come here and bash the Orthodox and/or Byzantine Catholics nor measure Byzantine Catholics with a Latin yard stick, those here should not bash the Latin Church nor attempt to measure it with a Byzantine yard stick.

Byzantine Catholics are just as connected to their Latin Catholic brothers as they are to the Orthodox, if not more so.

Well then Dr Eric, I guess just about every Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic parish and many Ukrainian parishes are in trouble.

Hi,

Kneeling (or the failure to do so) cannot be mortal sin, per se, because one of the elements necessary to have a mortal sin is grave matter, defined as a serious transgression against Divine Law.

Body posture during the liturgy is a matter of liturgical tradition, that is, Church law, not Divine law.

Teaching that kneeling is mortal sin could, perhaps be a mortal sin itself, because it is abuse of authority and that can be construed as a fault against the First and Second Commandments.

It cannot be heresy, however, because there is no dogma for (or against) kneeling. Again, the matter is not of the correct nature.

From the LA Times article, this pastor seems to be acting wrong, but that is soooooo evident, that I am inclined to think we need to hear the other side of the story in order to formulate an accurate judgement.

Now, failure the obey legitimate acts of authority can also be construed as a fault against the Fourth Commandment, but here the Catholic teaching is very clear in the requirement of legitimacy of the acts of authority.

Resisting illegitimate acts of authority is not only morally permissible, it is actually morally required (because for every illegitimate act of authority, there is at least a legitimate one being violated and upholding this legitimate one is the correct way to honor the Fourth Commandment).

That being said, kneeling at the Agnus Dei is liturgically incorrect, and has been so for quite some time. Traditionalists need to acknowledge this and follow the norm, doing otherwise is liturgical abuse.

If kneeling is allowed by the Pian rite at the Agnus Dei, then attendees to a Pian Liturgy may (and perhaps must) do so at that time. However, it is NOT allowed by the Pauline rite, and again, attendees are required to observe the liturgical rules in force for the particular liturgy they are attending.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

We agree then.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

That may or may not be correct. I am not an expert on the Liturgy. I do know that it is ABSURD to think that one will go to Hell for all eternity because they felt the need to kneel before Our Lord.

Dead serious. You have conveniently put aside the gist of my question to you.

The third of the congregation that is not adopting the posture of the community is not non-compliant because they have become "tired" or are "children". It is not even clear that the Lord is making them feel "compelled at the moment". It appears, although again it is not entirely clear, that thay they are willfully acting out on their own, with no respect for the rest of the community, the priest, or Bishop. They might even be disrupting divine services. This - not kneeling per se - is the occasion of sin, as I, and the priest in question, already suggested. I think that acting up in church misses the mark and seriously so.

Are they acting up, or just tired, or children, or feeling compelled, etc.? That is the critical question - what is in the heart. If you wish to discuss this question, then consider the many alternatives, not just the manifesty absurd ones.

In Tokyo at the Franciscan Chapel where I worship, there is a notice in each bulletin that the Catholic Bishops of Japan have decided that the proper posture at Words of Institution is standing, based upon their assessment of what is proper in Japanese culture. As one who is relatively new to Japanese culture, I can only assume that their reasoning for this is sound...I have not seen any explanation other than the announcement of the decision nor do I have sufficient knowledge to critique it.

If the Bishop of Orange in consultation with his brother bishops decides that the proper posture for worship at certain points in the Mass is standing, fine. Obedience to the bishop is key. But I can think of no claim (other than a dubious one) of any local tradition for Orange County of standing when the Latins have a well defined tradition of kneeling as part of their rite. The onus is on the Bishop to explain this deviation from traditional practice, since the "kneelers" are on the side of traditional practice for the Latins.

I for one could not care less whether people stand or kneel. I prefer to stand, personally, but then again, I'm Byzantine. I think the pastor could have used it as an opportunity to catechize the people on the different traditions of posture during prayer, instead of engaging in exaggerated threats.

"That is the critical question - but one that can only be answered by honestly condsidereding the many alternatives."

Including that it is the Liberal Bishops that are "acting up"!

Yes, the idea that it was the Bishop and priest and the two-thirds of the community were all out of line - that was the meme; how quick. If the others value their own judgment so highly, it's time for them to form their Protestant congregation.

Interesting article that gives some insight into the sad state of affairs in the Diocese of Orange http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2006/0605rk.htm

My own two cents-

The parish where my mother attends Mass mandates standing from the Great Amen until the Eucharist is placed in the Tabernacle (in a corner not visible to most of those attending Mass).

It just does not seem right that after receiving Our Lord I am simply supposed to walk back to my place in the pew, stand there and sing the Communion hymn, without so much as a prayer of thanksgiving.

To the best of my knowledge, no parish in the Pittsburgh Diocese mandates this standing posture.
If the next bishop tries to implement this, look out.
It will not go over well.

Yet another reason I prefer the Daily Mass. No bad hymns, the people who are there want to be there, and there is reverent silence.

Am I being accused of "Latin Bashing?"

I posted Canon XX of The First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea for discussion purposes as I figured someone would bring it up.

Dr. Eric

Baptised, Confirmed, and First Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic diocese of Belleville, IL.

Or perhaps it's time for the Bishop, the pastor and two-thirds of the congregation to stop "re-imagining church" and start respecting the sensibilities of those who want to live faithfully the Latin tradition. Who left what or whom in this case?

Again, the onus is on the Bishop to justify the change. The Bishop does not "own" the ritual traditions of his Church. He is its chief celebrandt, the guardian of the faith of the people, and the bridge to the broader communion of churches, however.

David, Christ is Risen!

I just got home from my daily celebration of vespers which is the official end of my day. I am glad there are no hard feelings in regards to this . I may have been a little terse, but I have had an extremely hard day and it looks like a long night to top things off. Meetings and teleconferences do not help the mood sometimes, but are necessary evils even for the church.

I expect all posters here on this forum to be faithful to their respective faith traditions. As the Byzantine Catholics may balk at impositions placed on them in the past and even presently, they should not expect that the Latin or Roman Catholics be unfaithful in their traditions and have the Byzantine traditions imposed on them.

As an Orthodox Christian, but also as a former history teacher our posters have to realize that ways and traditions have developed because of a circumstance. Whether the circumstance was proper or not, that is for history to tell us.

We are expected to be faithful not only to the church, but also to Jesus Christ the very foundation of all we profess and believe. If kneeling brings about a sense of reverence and awe, one should not condemn that person especially if it is keeping within their tradition. At least they are communing with God in prayer. The same would apply to standing. Over the course of my priesthood I have heard many arguments regarding this issue. Some good and some bad.

What the focus should be on, is this a distraction that will keep some from prayer and that intimacy of prayerful communion with God or not? If it does, then it is sinful, because the rule has robbed the person of that reverence and prayer.

We probably can debate this issue from now until the second-coming, but what will be resolved other than reinforcing our respective views. In an argument few opinions if any are changed.

My words will probably be discarded in this debate because I probably have not given anyone any fuel for thier side of the issue.

I close by reminding all to be faithful not only to their faith tradition, but also to the founder and ultimate head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator