www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Balamand Agreement

Well, Abdur, nothing in the Christian faith can justify atrocities like Srebenica, ask ANY scholar of ANY denomination or tradition.

However, those Palestinians who blow themselves up on Israeli buses and pizzerias, do it with a clear religious motivation.

This may be a distorted form of Islam, I know it's not the only form of Islam, but it IS one form of Islam.

There are religious scholars in Islam who claim that, according to Islamic teaching, it not only permitted, it's even a godpleasing act to blow yourself up in order to kill as many Jews ("infidel zionists") as possilbe...

And Alex, I'm not claiming that Christians as individuals are moral superior to Muslims, but if you ask me if the think the Christian religion and Christian ethics are superior to the ethics of the Islamic religion, my answer is YES!!!

Reminds me of something Gandhiji once said...

Some Christian ministers (Anglicans, no doubt, and others of that sort ) came to him to talk and hear from him, and they were impressed by his knowledge of Christianity and Jesus Christ. They asked him why he did not become a Christian, since he believed in much of what Christianity stood for already.

He said, and I paraphrase, but this is basically it, "I would become a Christian, if I could find other Christians in the world."

I wonder if it is indeed a clear religious motivation that motivates them, or if it's just plain desperation?

Dear OrthodoxSWE,

Well, it would depend on the interpretation of Christianity.

I know I have my interpretation of Christian morals and ethics which I believe are based on the Gospel, and yet I have been called nasty names by other Christians, saying I have misinterpreted etc.

The superiority of anyone is judged only by God through their actions.

And I believe that God counts many Muslims as "Christians" through their charitable actions.

Remember that St Alexander Nevsky was obliged to teach you Swedish Teutons a lesson a long time ago .

That wasn't charity, but it was self-defence.

God bless,

Alex

Dear Alex,

you missed my point:

I'm not saying that Christian are moral superior to and live better lives than Muslims, I'm sure that many Muslims are more "Christian" than many Christians.

However, if you look at the religion in it self, the picture is different.

For example, there's nothing like Sharia Law in the New Testament...

Dear OrthodoxSWE,

I don't really disagree with you . . .

Having said that , there is more to Christianity than the Scriptures, as you know as an Orthodox.

St Bernard of Clairvaux, for example, in drawing up the rules for the Templar Knights (from which the Swedish Teutonic Knights are descended ) wrote that it is the job of the Christian Knight to go into battle and kill the enemies of God and His Church . . .

Now, Bernard wasn't Orthodox, to be sure.

But a lot of unwritten rules and regulations were followed matter-of-factly by Christians as the law of the day that didn't have anything to do with the original message and intent of the Gospels.

And how did medieval society reflect the Gospels or the teaching of Jesus Christ?

As one theologian said, "Our religion is better than other religions. But we Christians are no better than other followers of other religions."

Ultimately, the "doing" not the "saying" or even the "reading" is what counts.

Alex

Alex,

I don't think we really disagree...

I wholehartedly agrre with your last quote, our religion is better, but we aren't better...

Maybe we're worse, since we have this great gift, but choose to ignore it?

BTW, did you know that the death penalty was abolished when Kiev embrased Christianity?

Christian

(Whoops! I said "Kiev", I meant of course "the All-glorious Kiyv"!)

Alex,

Can you tell me why that rule of the Templar Kinght is wrong? I mean I believe their job was to put-out-the-lights of others -- as both monks and soldiers. And besides they were just offering up their daily works for God. [God I'm bad]

As for medieval society. It is my understanding that confraternities took care of the widowed, orphaned, sick, and poor. This was the medieval "welfare" program. Unlike our state funded welfare programs of the modern age. So to me catholics were at work even in the medieval times.

I couldn't.

Even if I did, I would still hear the Adhan, I would still recite the Shahada, and I would never be able to leave behind those "little things," that comprise, almost unconsciously, a major part of an ethnic religion, an ethnic background, and one's personal faith even as it applies to family and history and on a broader context.

And how do you leave behind good memories and personal experiences?

The truth is: You can't and you shouldn't.

How do you leave behind the pathos of martyrdom and memories and deep respect for those who die for faith or are unjustly persecuted, even murdered?

Allah knows, enough Christians have been murdered by Muslims, so, it would be only natural for a Christian to sympathize with a Muslim and his or her dread over leaving behind the sacred memory of those murdered and martyred for Islam.

There is a freedom of belief and practice in my little Islamic cosmos that I could never just leave behind or replicate elsewhere.

Besides, I have/had relatives that 'Doxed out of necessity. They were sincere people relative to the difficult circumstannces they encountered in their lives.

Yes, in church they were Orthodox, but at home they were Muslims. That is an experience I observed and it isn't an experience I would ever desire to repeat, personally.

That is an unhealthy way to live, for Christians or Muslims.

God is in control!

Abdur

[ 04-11-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

After Justinian closed Plato's Athenian Academy in the 6th century, Greek pagan philosophers found refuge in Persia.

Eventually, the disciples of these exiled Greek philosophers and academicians had a profound influence upon Islamic mysticism and gnosticism; and ancient pagan Greek philosophy was able to survive through the agencies of Islamic mysticism and Sufism.

Praise Allah! He preserves what is true and beautiful in His sight.

Abdur

Dear OrthodoxSWE,

Yes, "Kyiv" .

Good for you - your kind of Orthodoxy is always most welcome and beloved by us Ukies!

Yes, the death penalty was abolished there as you say (perhaps the U.S. could learn a thing or two from St. Volodymyr?).

But the fact that we're Christians doesn't prevent us from sinning.

God's Grace does, of course. But we need to be open to it at all times.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us!

Alex

Dear Maximus,

As such, there is nothing wrong with the rule of the Templars.

I, for one, belonged to just such a society that followed it, minus the sword-play of course . . .

What you said about the welfare services of the Church is more than correct as well.

I just wanted to illustrate that there have been saints that have approved of violence done by Christians.

And their canonization implies that the Church approved of their views as well.

Alex

Dear Abdur,

What you say is perfectly true.

And there is no reason why Muslims who become Christians, and I know a few, shouldn't adapt their traditions to a Christian context.

The Templar Knights certainly borrowed heavily from Islamic practices, as does the Ethiopian Church today.

Your point about martyrs is illustrated in the case of the Old Believers of Russia.

They were persecuted by the Tsars and the state Church, and they have their martyrs whom they have always venerated.

Today, the BelaKrinitsa Old Believers constitute a Particular Orthodox Church with their own hierarchy. They have canonized their martyrs, persecuted by the very Church they are now in union with.

The same is true of other Churches that come together and find that the have learned to honour their saints in common, saints who in life hurled insults at each other (e.g. Georgian Orthodox Church's St David of Garesja who was called "that putrefaction from Georgia" by Greek theologians of his day).

I have prayed at the shrines of Muslim saints and my Muslim friends have prayed at the shrines of Christian saints.

Alex

Alex,

What society is this? Could you give a little info and history? I would appreciate it. By the way a little off topic, but did you know the Knights of Columbus, the Order of Hiberians, and other catholics helped drive the KKK out off Milwaukee during or before the Depression era - I forget - but it was actually an orginzed thing. Catholics infiltrated the Klan and began makeing lists of their names and those that showed up for meetings. Catholics and Catholic confaraternities actually attacked Klansmen and Klan rallies.

I'm sure Catholic and Orthodox (too include of course all of Eastern Catholicism) grass roots efforts and operations aren't necessarily given due academic attention to the roles they've played in development and histories of local societies.

By the way I would like to hear of Orthodox fraternal brotherhoods & sisterhoods too - if there are any.