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Alex,
Thanks for your comments. I feel much better now as well.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

While it is important to be humble, people like us take enough nonsense from non-Ukrainians (in other words, people who don't know any better ).

But to take it from our own people - well, then we have to draw the line somewhere!

Remember how Fr. Markian Shashkevych was persecuted for refusing to say sermons in Polish in the Greek Catholic Church!

Alex

Alex,
Father Markian must have been a noble man, unfortunately I don't know much about him. I do know that he also wrote a number of interesting papers as well that made some hairs stick out.

The sad situation here in Brazil is critical because I've spoken to a number of semiarians("Our Future")from a certain order and I think you know which one, and they said that they aren't interested about the situation in Ukraine. They believe that the reality of the Ukrainians in Brazil should be dealt with differently. I told them that they were right but that the differance should come about in the social aspects of the church and not in the liturgical aspects.
I don't see how taking away the iconostasis and putting up statues and shortening the liturgy is going to put bread on the table for those who need it desperately. There's a town in the state of Sanata Catarina where you'll see a beautiful Ukie Church from the outside but when you walk in you won't find an iconostas instead you'll see a big statue of Saint Anthony.
Sad, isn't it?
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Yes, it is sad, from my point of view, primarily because your, shall we say, "Brasilian Order" wants to adapt their RC environment etc.

I think that they would do everyone a great service if they became as Ukrainian and as Byzantine as possible.

RC's and the unchurched find our liturgical tradition interesting and attractive.

Why go to venerate a Ukrainian statue of St Anthony when you can go to so many RC churches to do the same?

It's one thing to try and save our Church and people from an untimely cultural grave.

It's quite another to be the very ones digging it!

But, our Church survived the Soviets, they'll survive the Ukrainian assimilationists!

Although, I daresay, it will have a tougher fight on its hands than with the former USSR in this respect . . .

Alex

Alex,
I still see a light, it may be dim but it's there and that's why I haven't given up hope. As I have once said some priests down here seem to be on my side and believe it or not a couple of them are Basilians.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

I know we tend to "rib" our Basilians (in your case, "Brasilians" ).

But there are many among them that are truly Eastern.

Your Father Vasyl Zinko was a great liturgist who was very dedicated to Eastern reforms in our Church. His translation of the Horologion was my first experience with this service book and it captivated me!

Even the very traditional Chicago Church of Sts. Volodymyr and Olha have recommended liturgical books by Fr. Julian Katry, OSBM and others.

In reviewing Fr. Katry's liturgical publication, the only thing Mr. Eugene Ivankiw could find to criticize it was its inclusion of devotion to the Sacred Heart. But then again St Andrew Sheptytsky also promoted this devotion.

And so did, apparently, the Orthodox Saint Nicholas Kabasilas, in his book, published by St Vladimir's Seminary Press, on the Divine Liturgy . . .

Alex

Lauro, you have brought up a great point. Those Brazilian seminarians need to have a vision of how to advance and restore the church in Brazil. Patriarch Lubmoyr and Kyr Vasiliy Medvit and company are dealing with Ukraine...

The point is, their future lies with the church in Brazil. The Kyivan tradition is universal, whether it be manifested in Brazil, Argentina, USA, etc. But it sounds like there is a lot of work to be done in the Eparchy in Curitiba...

I have been thinking.

The case described by Ipreima in the Ukrainian parish in Brazil is quite the example of what Orthodox would be afraid if communion with Rome is restored.

I would not say about the Latinization (statues well, no big deal, they can be removed) but what caught my atention is when he said he saw a nun distributing communion, which is undoubtedly an influence of a sad cultural phenomenon that has infiltrated the Latin Church in Latin American nations.

It is also a way of thinking, when the differenciation between Roman catholic and Catholic is blured, it is my understanding that the seminarians feel that they must strenghten their ties with Brazil, the country where they are from (after all, Brazil is there, and Ukraine or any other country is a distant place), and with the Catholic community (and Orthodoxy seems to be unknown or uninteresting to many). I don't know if this could be the case.

People tell me that in Argentina, the situation is a little bit different, as Eastern Catholic communities have few contacts with Western ones and receive Bishops from abroad.

One of our problems is the issue of money. The majority of the Ukrainians here are poor, most of them live in rural areas, small farmers etc. We don't have the money to send our semenarians to Ukraine to conclude their studies, so what happens is that their theology and philosophy courses are done here inside of the western cultural and spiritual view. I think that it would of course be interesting that our students had the opportunity to at least do two years of their remaining studies in Ukraine, but unfortunately that doesn't seem possible. Our bishop is actually a nice person and I have to say that he's done a lot for our community without much financial support. I know that I have my differences with him dealing with certain issues (let's say "Patriarchal"), but if I knock at his door, he recieves me and for some reason he seems to respect me and even likes me. (Strange, isn't it?). But there really is a lot to do if we are talking about maintaing the Kyivan tradition. I also believe that this problem isn't only ours because from what I know there are a number of Ukie priests in the USA and Canada that are from Brazil. What to do and where to start is the problem especially if you don't have the money.
Lauro

Dear Snoopy,

The Latinization of the Ukrainian Church has much less to do with Rome than it does with: a) the historic relationship of domination over this Church of the RC Church of Poland whose political aim it was to Polonize the Ukrainians by means of Latin Catholicism; and b) Latinizations that were self-imposed by the Ukrainian Catholics themselves.

As Fr. B. Lypsky states in his "Spirituality of our Rite," there was not one Latinization that came to the UGCC via Rome, whose orders to "de-Latinize" have been historically ignored by many UGCC bishops.

So if this is the only thing that stands in the way of you coming into communion with Rome, don't let it!

Alex

Dear All:

I would just like to add that while we all certainly tend to "rib" the Basilians, they have indeed done some very good work. Fr. Katrij is but one example - the other was the late Fr. Dyrda. And, of course, I could not leave out our dear Bishop Emeritus of Chicago Innocent, who after "retiring" at age 75 all of a sudden stopped using "Major Archbishop" during the Litgury and started using "Patriarch."

Also, please allow me to put relay a story of how I unintentionally put the Basillian "Molytoslov" to the test. When studing in Philadelphia for three years, I did not have a car, so I attended services at the GO parish in Center City. (Yes, I could have almost as easliy gone to the Ukie Cathederal - but leave me be on this issue, OK?). Anyway, when the Great Fast came, I brought my copy of the Molytoslov to the GO church so that I could follow along with the stychyra on "Hospody Vzyvaju" (Lord I Have Cried Unto Thee). Turns out the Greeks did the Presanctified in English, but, still, I followed along in Ukrainian while listening to the English chanting. Guess what? The Basillians' Ukrainian translation of the text was DEAD ON.

The only thing that the Basillians did was change the word "pravoslavnyj" (small-o "orthodox") to "pravovirnyj" ("true-believing"). Nobody's perfect.

Yours,

kl

The most Latinized Eastern Church that I have ever attended was the Byzantine Catholic Church in Erie Pa. No Iconostas, they had a big arch behind which there was an icon of the Theotokos. and during the liturgy the ambon would rise out of the floor. No joking honestly

OrthodoxCatholic<< the only thing Mr. Eugene Ivankiw could find to criticize it was its inclusion of devotion to the Sacred Heart. But then again St Andrew Sheptytsky also promoted this devotion.

And so did, apparently, the Orthodox Saint Nicholas Kabasilas, in his book, published by St Vladimir's Seminary Press, on the Divine Liturgy . . .>>

Huh? I missed that. Which page and paragraph, Alex?

OrthodoxEast

There is a Church somewhere in Eastern America.

It has a RC looking altar and tabernacle, no iconostasis and 2 side altars. The amazing thing is that it was built in the late 1980's.
I thought latinization of that kind was unheard of by then. I was shocked when I saw the photos in the Metropolia directory.

Michael

Michael

Try this one in Winnipeg:

http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/fotogalleries/church_buildling/gal_building1.htm