www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Catalogue of Latinizations

Dear Kobzar - there's more, I can assure you! How many of our churches do you know of with a curtain across the Royal Doors? And in how many of our parishes is the memorial of Saint Gregory Palamas observed on the second Sunday of Great Lent?

You mention "permitting people to kneel to receive Holy Communion". Caution - if it's a case of relatively few people, I'd be inclined to tolerate such things for a time rather than have a big fight. It's amazing what can become a shiboleth. If on the other hand it's the whole parish, then it's time for some catechesis (probably best done in the run-up to Pascha).

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Yes, we have no curtains today!
For the Royal Doors. I've only know of one church in my area that has curtains and sometimes closes the Royal Doors during Liturgy, and it's not an Eastern Catholic Church.
However, in some Orthodox churches I have seen hand bells (maybe they use them because the great doors are closed) that are used to signify the same things they signify in a Latin Church (raising of the Body and the Chalice, sanctus, etc).

This makes me wonder.

I know of several Orthodox parishes around here, most of which only have one Liturgy per Sunday, although there are a few that have two Liturgies (one in English, the other in the ethnic language).

In a Byzantine parish is it proper to only have one Liturgy on any normal Sunday? Are there canonical, theological or ecclesiological reasons for this kind of an arrangement?

If so, this is definitely a radically different practice than in the Roman rite, which seems to have Mass at several convenient hours of the day.

Dear Incognitus,

Apart from certain "Elite Eastern parishes" up here, the very idea of venerating an Orthodox Saint canonized after the schism of 1054 would be enough to earn you (or myself, if I were the one to raise it) a solid beating about the calves and ankles.

Is there ANY tradition of the veneration of St Gregory Palamas in EC churches, apart from it being almost a kind of "Eastern novelty" in those very Eastern parishes?

Even Archbishop Raya has no liturgical propers for St Gregory in his Byzantine Daily Worship, but mentions his commemoration AND what he says were "certain errors" contained in Palamas' theology that were "later refuted by Greek and Russian theologians."

So Archbishop Raya himself affirms that, from the EC point of view, Palamas had "erred."

Over to you!

Alex

Dear Andriju X,

While certainly not the Orthodox practice, I really don't see how multiple Divine Liturgies on the same altar and on the same day necessarily constitutes a Latinization.

The Melkites themselves approved the feast of St Joseph on March 19th AND the Feast of the Body of the Lord (Corpus Christi).

Were those Latinizations?

Can they be called Latinizations when the Synod of the Particular Church ITSELF approves them?

And we're not talking Synod of Zamosc or its time-period and consequent mentality of "Uniatism."

We're talking Melkites here, who really set the best example of an Eastern Catholic Church for the rest of us.

Your post is great in that it raises further issues surrounding the definition of "Latinization."

Alex

Perhaps another thread could come out of this.
We do not say unto the ages of ages in our Glory Be. Why is that? Just a question.

Just a question. Should we try to pick up Orthodox practices that have developed since the schism? Are there practices that we've devoloped since our reunion with Rome that are neither Orthodox nor Latin? Should they all be continued?

Dan L

My word. Alex threatens beatings around the calves and ankles for the veneration of a Saint (Saint Gregory Palamas, to be precise) whose veneration is expressly permitted in a service-book published by the Holy See. Another poster suggests - tongue in cheek, I hope - that celebrating "Corpus Christi" is not a Latinization. Truly, we live in interesting times.

Incognitus

Neo-Latinizations/Westernizations:

Inclusive language

Women Religious without monastic clothing

Neglect of antidoron but the priest greets people at the front entrance as people exit church

Dear Incognitus,

It is not I who threaten anything.

It would be Rev. Fr. Dr Paroch so and so in a number of our parishes here!

But, apart from that Vatican source you cite, are there any liturgical directives around that indicate the EC's should venerate St Gregory Palamas?

Is there a tradition in the EC Churches in this respect?

Again, even Archbishop Raya (+memory eternal!) affirms that Palamas' theology contained "errors."

I'm sure this or that very Eastern parish is entitled to honour St Gregory Palamas and will.

But how can we possibly state that his veneration is part of the EC heritage?

Forgive me, but you aren't giving answers here.

Alex

Dear Professor Dan,

Now yours is truly a remarkable question! It cuts to the chase, Sir!

As I see it, we EC's tend to brand as a "Latinization" ANYTHING that is different from what the Orthodox do, whether or not it has as its source a Latin practice imposed on our ancestors by RC's.

So it is quite legitimate to ask:

1) If a Latin practice is voluntarily adopted by an EC Church via its Synod as the Melkites did with the Feasts of St Joseph and Corpus Christi - is it a true "Latinization?"

2) If a private practice among Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox faithful (the Orthodox too being susceptible to Latinization) resembles a Western Catholic practice - so what? Does that mean that closeness with the West suggests Latinization?

3) Do the EC Churches have the right to develop their own traditions, quite apart from Western influence, that builds on their Eastern heritage but that, in the end, results in certain practices that are at variance with Eastern Orthodoxy?

4) Is it legitimate for EC churches to adopt practices (and Saints) from Eastern Orthodoxy that came after 1054AD? Who vets these?

5) Why is Incognitus putting words into my mouth with respect to the veneration of St Gregory Palamas?

Alex

Alex,

When you refer to "Elite Eastern parishes" in Canada, I assume you mean parishes like St Elias in Brampton which I have always seen as a good model for Eastern Catholic parishes to recover their authentic Orthodox roots.

Many of the customs supposedly practiced by Eastern Christians are being adopted by the Latins.

I can attend my wife's former Latin parish and they don't kneel. I attend my home Greek Catholic parish and they kneel.

It was a hassle for some parishes in our Metropolia to adopt Infant Communion, but not so for some Latin parishes to administer Confirmation BEFORE First Communion. Some of our own clergy refuse to administer communion until the Age of Reason.

There are more married Latin Catholic priests serving in the US than Eastern Catholic ones.

Latin parishes are also adopting Byzantine iconography whereas some of our own Greek Catholic ones really have a problem with anything Eastern (iconography only gets in the way of the Stations). Even Evangelical and Baptist publishers are depicting icons on the covers of their books!

So, what exactly IS a Latinization today?

Shouldn't we speak of Tridentinizations?

If we go to the root of our traditions, not just the liturgical ones, but the biblical foundations of much of our traditions, we find less differences.

We still talk about and worship the same Jesus of Nazareth, who we call the "Christ."

God bless,
Joe

Dear Brian,

Yes.

Alex

Dear Joseph,

You are just so incredibly wonderful!

For some reason, if I've read this correctly, it seems that traditional Latins, when they see their Church adapt these Eastern traditions, understand them as being "liberalizations" rather than "Latinizations."

Why do you suppose that is? (i.e. standing for Communion is disrespectful etc.).

A number of our traditional Latins here have talked about how the Tridentine-oriented folk respect the Eastern Church . . .

Yet, the trilogy of traditional Tridentine targets of trouble in the Latin Church seem to be precisely "Easternizations" as you have so eloquently and insightfully said.

How is it that the same traditions in the Eastern Church are "venerable" but in the Latin Church they suggest "liberalization?"

Any ideas, Sir?

Alex