www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Catalogue of Latinizations

Dear Friends,

Based on what you yourselves see in the parishes you attend or know about, what are the most overt Latinizations around today that you notice?

Could they be gotten rid of easily - that is to say, would it pose a problem with parishioners if they would no longer be practiced tomorrow?

How would you describe a "Latinized parish?"

I think I have an idea, but it is always changing based on what I see in other parishes.

How would you describe a truly "Eastern parish?"
(Assuming there's more to it than just "they do everything as the Orthodox do")

Alex

Hmmm.... I think that the desire to catalog and make lists of latinizations is a sign of a latinized mind. :p

On a serious note, probably the biggest latinization (causing the most harm to our Church) I have seen is the abandonment of Byzantine fasting customs and the adoption of Latin ones.

Dear Administrator,

THAT is one heck of difference and practice !

james

Patens being used.
People genuflecting to receive.
headcoverings.
Holy water dishes at the entrances/exits
people not visiting the tetrapod coming into church or leaving
Ok, mine aren't that bad. Surely someone has better.

Dear Administrator,

Then we are both of one mind indeed . . .

You remind me of what my father used to say when I began attending a Latin Catholic high school.

He warned me to be careful, otherwise, "They'll Latinize you without you knowing how and by whom!"

What nonsense, though . . .

Pax Tecum!

Alex

My vote is SEATS or more accurately PEWS!

Observing from the outside, I'd say the biggest one in the US is the suppression of ordaining married men to the priesthood.

Dave

Dear Chtec,

I never did understand the Latins on this issue.

If they allowed all Latin clergy to marry - what better way to ensure celibacy?

Alex

I would agree with Dave, that the suppression of the ordination of married men, along with the abandonment of vespers (and matins) are the biggest latinizations that our church has experienced.

LOL....

james

Dear Alex:

Wait a minute, I lost you there!

Did you mean "chastity?"

Amado

What a disappointment; when I saw "Catalogue of Latinizations" I thought I would be able to order a few!
Daniel

Dear Daniel:

I have had my fill of these "Latinizations," self-inflicted or not! :p

So, I am done, and I do not foresee filling up any orders in the near future!

Besides, I gave up on "stale" goods a long time ago and I am not really into the "futures" market!

Amado

Yeah, the lack of Vespers and Matins, the addition of pews in the main worship area, and of course, no married priests are big. But you wanna know what's missing in abundance?

BYZANTINE BUILDINGS!! ICONS!

Latinisations at a parish I know well...

• use of confessionals
• loss of proper Eucharistic preparation and fasting in general
• preference for read, not sung, Eucharistic services
• rare use of incense
• little kids as servers
• priests not wearing cuffs
• use of precuts
• paten instead of diskos, not veiled. Chalice covered withe a "card" instead of a proper veil with flaps
• pews
• kneeling when one is not supposed to
• multiple Divine Liturgies celebrated on same Holy Table on the same day {and on the same antimension}
• Royal Doors open throughout Liturgy and one, or both, deacon's door open if no servers. {I consider the Royal Doors being open throughout a DL (non-pontifical) as a Latinization. The Romans don't block the view of the priest and what he is doing, so ...}
• bowing of heads at mention of "incarnation" during "Only-begotten Son" and during "Credo"
• kneeling during Gospel reading {OK, I know this isn't done in the Roman Church, but it definitely isn't "ours"}
• filioque in the Symbol of Faith
• no use of zeon/teplota
• permitting people to kneel to receive
• no a-liturgical days (except Great & Holy Friday, of course)
• May devotions
• October is "Rosary Month" - rosary recited after every Divine Liturgy
• daily evening Divine Liturgies (in parish's defense, not on Sunday)
• attendance at Saturday evening DL satisfies "Sunday obligation"
• Corpus Christi and related feasts celebrated. Also "Christ the King" in October, like the Romans used to.
• Moleben to the Sacred Heart served the 9 days after Corpus Christi {I'm not 100% sure on the timing as I try not to be present for such}
• baptism by pouring, not immersion
• refusal to include Eucharist with other Sacraments of Initiation plus refusal to give Communion to children who were communed at baptism until their "real" First Communion
• creche (manger) set up for Christmas
• proper funeral services replaced by requiem DL
• Stations of the Cross during the Great Fast

Of course, there are other propblems which can't properly be considered latinizations, unless one uses the argument that any trimming or neglecting of traditions is a latinization. This is how I think. There a tendency to have things quick and simple, "Just like Roman (read as "real"?) Catholics".

Although Dolnytsky's Typyk, the Ordo Celebrationis and the Rescensio Rutena books aren't perfect (yes, I'm picky), it would be an immense improvement if we could at least follow our own books! Instead things are(not) done due to "pastoral considerations" which, of course, means "consider the pastor first". :p

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!