|
1 members (Protopappas76),
256
guests, and
21
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,219
Posts415,299
Members5,881
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Originally posted by Jakub.:
As for discussing different Rites...either discuss all variations and their particulars or limit the topics to Byzantine period...sorry if its harsh...I'm tired of those who pick and choose then bellyache later... You quite lost me there. Can you clarify?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1 |
Gordo,
They pick a subject from or discuss at great length, a piece of the Latin-Western Rite that is a benefit to them at the time...then condemn the discussion of said matter on a Eastern forum...
PAX
james
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Eli,
The traditional Eastern perception of episcopal authority is that it is . . . absolute.
One follows the directives of one's bishop in the first instance and that is that.
The entire notion of deciding when a bishop is not to be obeyed, or who has more authority over him which means one may appeal to it etc. - is perhaps a fine Latin tradition (and I wouldn't know nor care to), but it has no relevance for the Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox.
Apart from that, why is a discussion introduced here to defend kneeling from the standpoint of traditionalism? How is that relevant to Eastern Christians whose tradition is decidedly against it?
This argument is also brought up in a number of EC parishes I've attended where "Latin Catholic refugees" from the Novus Ordo insist on it to the point of telling their EC parochial hosts that standing throughout the Divine Liturgy is an act of disrespect to God etc. In my parish where NO kneeling is practiced, we have those who simply flaunt what everyone else does and kneel to Communion etc. As I have an aunt who belongs to this group, I can tell you that they truly do believe that standing is sinfully disrespectful of God during the Divine Liturgy and that it is their "mission" to bring the EC Churches back to the "proper" ways etc.
Many of us here have simply had enough of that nonsense and of being obliged to engage in this discussion from the standpoint of Latin Catholic liturgical praxis.
THAT is certainly disrespectful, I believe, to the Eastern Christian spirit on this forum, especially when there are plenty of Latin Catholic forums, traditionalist and liberal, where such issues can be debated fruitfully, with the participation of priests in the know with respect to Latin canonical law.
Even when the UGCC in Canada issued its statement on the Filioque, there was no "ukase" involved forcing any parish to remove it.
That is just not our style.
I reiterate the Administrator's own stated policy for this forum that it reflect the concerns of Eastern Christianity and that issues especially dealing with the internal praxis of the Latin Catholic Church be taken elsewhere.
Ultimately and ideally, Eastern Orthodox DO see kneeling on Sundays as sinful - as it breaks the canons and tradition of the Church that forbids it at certain times and liturgical seasons.
For us, it is an expression of humility in the face of our own personal sinfulness - and such has NO place on the day of the Lord's glorious Resurrection and during the Paschal period when we celebrate it continually.
Alex If your comments are directed at me, maybe I'm not being clear. I have no issue whatsoever with Byzantine practice. I love it and advocate for it. I wish the world was Byzantine! But if wishes were fishes as my wife says... I certainly DO NOT fall within the camp of your aunt. When in Constantinople...!  Your point about the absolute authority of the local bishop within the Eastern tradition is an interesting and very pertinent one. I want to reflect more on this, while reading some of the applicable canons where I can find them to see how much of my attitude here may reflect some of my own residual Latinization. I had not quite considered that, so thanks. As far as the appropriateness of this topic, I know that issues with the Church universal are discussed here at length whatever the jurisdiction. I don't agree with your issue re: this being on a Byzantine forum, particularly in a section on "Church News". I read your posts with great interest where you advocate practices such as the Rosary and the wearing of Scapulars...practices that some would consider to be Latinizations. You make your arguments rather well that they are in fact rooted in eastern practice. I admire your breadth of Catholic (and Orthodox) spirit, and would never claim that you are somehow broaching issues outside of the purview of this forum. I see connections to the East on this issue. You have offered a perspective that is worth consideration, I think. Is that not the point of dialogue? No one is under any obligation to comment on any post. What obligation are you referring to? Peace, Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555 |
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Eli,
The traditional Eastern perception of episcopal authority is that it is . . . absolute.
One follows the directives of one's bishop in the first instance and that is that.
The entire notion of deciding when a bishop is not to be obeyed, or who has more authority over him which means one may appeal to it etc. - is perhaps a fine Latin tradition (and I wouldn't know nor care to), but it has no relevance for the Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox.
Apart from that, why is a discussion introduced here to defend kneeling from the standpoint of traditionalism? How is that relevant to Eastern Christians whose tradition is decidedly against it?
This argument is also brought up in a number of EC parishes I've attended where "Latin Catholic refugees" from the Novus Ordo insist on it to the point of telling their EC parochial hosts that standing throughout the Divine Liturgy is an act of disrespect to God etc. In my parish where NO kneeling is practiced, we have those who simply flaunt what everyone else does and kneel to Communion etc. As I have an aunt who belongs to this group, I can tell you that they truly do believe that standing is sinfully disrespectful of God during the Divine Liturgy and that it is their "mission" to bring the EC Churches back to the "proper" ways etc.
Many of us here have simply had enough of that nonsense and of being obliged to engage in this discussion from the standpoint of Latin Catholic liturgical praxis.
THAT is certainly disrespectful, I believe, to the Eastern Christian spirit on this forum, especially when there are plenty of Latin Catholic forums, traditionalist and liberal, where such issues can be debated fruitfully, with the participation of priests in the know with respect to Latin canonical law.
Even when the UGCC in Canada issued its statement on the Filioque, there was no "ukase" involved forcing any parish to remove it.
That is just not our style.
I reiterate the Administrator's own stated policy for this forum that it reflect the concerns of Eastern Christianity and that issues especially dealing with the internal praxis of the Latin Catholic Church be taken elsewhere.
Ultimately and ideally, Eastern Orthodox DO see kneeling on Sundays as sinful - as it breaks the canons and tradition of the Church that forbids it at certain times and liturgical seasons.
For us, it is an expression of humility in the face of our own personal sinfulness - and such has NO place on the day of the Lord's glorious Resurrection and during the Paschal period when we celebrate it continually.
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Gordo, Rosaries and scapulars are Eastern!  No obligation, and perhaps I'm overreacting because of my aunt (she can be a real pain at times, but I like her anyway). You have residual Latinism? There's a simple solution - face East three times daily and breathe in the air deeply . . .  Or perhaps this topic is one that would put an ECer in a quandry. On the one hand, one wants to defend the traditional Latin practice against "encroaching liberalism imposed by edict from above" but on the other, kneeling is really anathema to the pure Eastern practice that we are all called to approach as nearly as possible (notwithstanding the numbers of parishes that will just plop themselves down at the drop of a hat anyway). We are certainly able to discuss things that have connections to the East - and, yes, I know I've stretched things a lot myself in this respect . . . And I'm certainly not against discussing Latin Church issues when they do have such a connection (such as the fact that the Rosary and Scapular come from the East . . . ). But on this score, I don't see what we can contribute to this internal Latin Church issue. On the one hand, I don't like the way that priest asserts rather boldly that kneeling is a mortal sin. But there is a part of me that would wish that our bishops would be more zealous in promoting our authentic Eastern Christian traditions - which means standing, not kneeling. Do you see my dilemma? Eli doesn't seem to . . . sniff . . .  Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Eli, No need to reprint my post out of sheer admiration for its breadth and depth, old fellow! A simple "That's great, Alex" would have sufficed! Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555 |
Originally posted by Elitoft:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Eli,
The traditional Eastern perception of episcopal authority is that it is . . . absolute. In all things but sin. The entire notion of deciding when a bishop is not to be obeyed, or who has more authority over him which means one may appeal to it etc. - is perhaps a fine Latin tradition (and I wouldn't know nor care to), but it has no relevance for the Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox. That is not quite true. There are legitimate means in the eastern code of canons and in Orthodoxy for exerting influence and canonical stricture upon the unjust or uncanonical or objectively sinful behaviors of a bishop. In the eastern and western code of canons there are also mechanisms where individuals may make their collective priesthood heard juridically and there are practical means as well, without becoming fully congregationalist in their beliefs or their behaviors. In such matters as discipline there are canons which allow for local practices occurring over a period of time to become a legitimate part of the local tradition. And those canons are still applicable throughout the Catholic world. Not all canons that regulate the Catholic world have been codified. Ironically the Bishop of Orange is, in other stances, the first one to declare "We are Church!" I don't think that threads should live or die based upon your personal likes or dislikes, but that is simply one perspective and I don't intend to push it past this point. Eli
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555 |
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: Dear Eli,
No need to reprint my post out of sheer admiration for its breadth and depth, old fellow!
A simple "That's great, Alex" would have sufficed!
Alex :p Pls.see ensuing stiff-nosed reply! Eli
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
Eli: I disagree with the no holds barred judgment against the Bishop, while calling for suspending judgment against the laity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1 |
I did not post the original topic...however maybe it should have been linked/attached/referenced to Latin "practices" adopted by Eastern Catholic Churches and the problems & difficulties associated with them etc...
PAX
james
ps-There is more to this story then is being discussed...but as said previously...it's for another forum.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
djs,
I was going based on what is written in the GIRM and on Pavel's post. Sorry Gordo I am not following here. By the way, I started in on your link, but it did not seem relevant, as it was not not talking about kneeling at the Agnus Dei.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,317 Likes: 21 |
Dear Eli, Well, it's just not my opinion, you know. It's also the view of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, East and West! :p And I have a right to express my view about a thread/post when I think it oversteps the bounds of the very clear principles enunciated by our articulate Administrator, our spiritual father here! So there! Besides, I think all RC's should be made to stand anyway . . . After all, they've been telling us what the "correct" way of doing things is for years! Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 311
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 311 |
I visited the website of the Orange County Diocese to find out more about the situation, and on their page was a a clarification. It seems that Fr. Tran was NOT saying that kneeling was a mortal sin. When he mentioned "mortal sin", he was speaking in general terms about ignoring the liturgical norms and rebellion against the USCCB and individual bishops. His comment was apparently taken out of context, and he apologized for the misunderstanding his comments caused. Here's the link, but you need Adobe to read the whole article: www.rcbo.org [ rcbo.org] God bless, Karen, who must now apologetically edit her latest blog entry...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
ok... Karen thanks for the post. It does clarify things. Remember that game from the movie "Office Space"? It appears I have just played and won "Jump to Conclusions"! My prize? A healthy portion of crow on my plate for the next 6 months. mmmm...not too bad. A little gamey, but watch the feathers...they can get stuck in your teeth. :p Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225 Likes: 1 |
In 100 words maybe less...
The spark that started the inferno was...that this parish/Church was of a indult/tridentine nature, with altar rails etc...when the monsignor retired the Bishop began the changes to a modern practice...those who were worshippers before are now displaced...
I believe this "rebellion" could of been avoided by a compromise of some sort...something should have been done before the national paper picked up the story...
Sometimes you need to expose the "root" of the ache...
PAX
james
|
|
|
|
|
