www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Kneeling Is A Mortal Sin!

The Roman Church allows individuals to kneel after the Lamb of God (Agnus Dei) even if the bishop has determined that the norm be standing at that point.

Check out this response to the question by Cardinal Arinze, of the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and Sacraments: www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling.htm [ewtn.com]

Dear Friends,

More and more, this thread is being embroiled in a discussion about internal Latin Church liturgical praxis.

Despite stated claims that this has some connection to the Eastern Churches, none have been substantiated or even articulated.

It has no relation to the Eastern Churches and I ask for it to be either closed or moved - to a Latin Catholic forum.

Sorry . . .

Alex

Since I am from the Left Coast of California and used to be a member of the Latin Catholic Church, I just want to second the idea that we pray.

I still have friends in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles and also some from Orange County under Brown.

They come to me in tears. They have begged for the FSSP to be able to come and offer them a Latin Tridentine Mass, but the Bishops are against that society and do not want to have a Latin Mass.

So what has happened is schism. There are numerous Latin Masses being offered with no oversight of a bishop. And the following priests offer the Latin Mass while not being incardinated under any Bishop of Rome:

Father Melito
Father Perez
Father Dominic
SPPX parishes
etc.

So, the people in LA and Orange County who want a Latin Mass are being forced into schismatic churces, otherwise they must travel 100 miles or more each Sunday to find the few rotating Latin Masses that are held only once a month in a specified parish. Few can afford this travel expense with the gasoline at $3.00 plus per gallon. Yes, the Latin Traditionalists are being discriminated against.

And I have recommended that they attend the Byzantine Catholic Church or the Melkite Church and it doesn't work. Many Byzantine Catholic Parishes don't want to have a Rosary before the Divine Liturgy. So, the traditionalists don't feel at home. They also want private confessions as they don't feel comfortable with face to face confessions as we do it in the East. They don't feel at home in the Eastern Churches. They have become refugees - where they don't feel at home anywhere. They are thus truly in need of our prayers. And yes, they are angry. And this is not good for their salvation.

This is not right. Knowing that my salvation was at risk, I began an honest search. And frankly this is why I became an Eastern Catholic and then finally found my way into the Eastern Orthodox Church, where I truly feel at home.

My prayers for the Latin Traditionalists.

Elizabeth-Maria

I on a quick break to get some material downloaded that is needed for a work project. I decided to check in to see how things are going.

I have to state I am somewhat disappointed in the lack of progression here. While I partially agree with Alex, we seem to be getting bogged down over whether or not this can happen. Numerous links have been posted and we seem to be going around in circles. Let us get on with this matter and develop the subject.

While we are on the subject though, the Church News Forum here is not for exclusively Eastern Catholic or Byzantine News. Many threads in the past have had very little to do with even the Eastern Churches. This is allowed so that others on this forum can stay informed on news items that effect both Eastern and Western Churches. I would find it difficiult to discuss anything with other churches if I was not informed of the current state of affairs.

This and certain other topics similar are always demanded to be closed or moved or even deleted. Unless the rules of this forum are violated, the thread will remain open to all that wish to post or not. No one is forcing anyone to post here, it is done by your own volition. If you do not like the thread or the subject, do not post to it. If enough are of the same opinion it will die or retire to the old post archive. Again, I suggest we either get on with this subject or drop it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator/Moderator

Dear Alex,

I understand your desire to keep the list focused on the eastern tradition. However, I would think you would agree the Church is equal to the sum of the parts (East and West) and if one, or both, of the parts is mortally ill it is going to affect the other.

I will make an attempt to develop the subject as Fr. Anthony suggests. The Eastern Bishops are members of the USCCB, where they are being influenced by the malignancy of the Latin Bishops. For example, Bishop Moskal of the UGCC allows altar girls and Bishop Schott is about to give the BCC a "revised liturgy". Where do you think the influence for these examples, an many others, come from? The Orthodox? I don't think so. The plague in the west is spreading to the east.

Bless, Father!

I agree that all kinds of things constitute "News!"

But this thread has become a commentary on Latin liturgical praxis and also on the subject of opposition to clergy and hierarchy etc.

It is to that that I object to. And 110+ posts on kneeling isn't exactly what one could call a "news review" but I defer to your judgement, Reverend Father worker-priest!

So much space here being dedicated to kneeling from the perspective of "kneeling as the traditional thing to do" - then again about opposing episcopal authority, censuring priests etc.

I like gossip-news about the Latin Church as much as the next Eastern Christian, but the thread seems to be getting into some heavy Latin concerns.

If someone can show me and others here HOW this is related to the Eastern Churches, then I will read and I will even eat some crow.

I don't see how what is going on in the West is coming Eastwards, as my esteemed Brother Oblate Athanasius has said above.

But I'm willing to listen and learn.

So before we get too much ahead of ourselves, how about you guys explain how this is connected to the Eastern Churches (since a number of you say it is) and enlighten people like me who are so obviously invincibly ignorant?

And, dear Brother Athanasius, I hardly think a "revised liturgy" implies ecclesial malignancy - if so, then someone like me will chime in that such "malignancy" was already around when someone decided to have English liturgies as a whole! (That's when the floodgates were opened to the Church's detriment!)

As for "altar-girls," my grandmother was such an altar-girl for her priestly father and for her priestly husband during the war.

As an altar-girl, she prayed an hour morning and night, said two rosaries daily and attend Divine Liturgy and all the daily horological services. She raised seven children in the midst of the ravages of war, fed countless other children who were displaced during the war and who had no parents, personally attended wounded soldiers, including soviet soldiers who kissed her hand and received holy water and prayer cards from her, had a German luger pistol pointed at her head for feeding prisoners of war and otherwise served her family, Church and people selflessly and without a care for her own safety -trusting in the Will of God.

Altar-girls? If we can but be worthy of such altar-girls, our Church would really be something today!

To Vladyka Robert I say - GOD BLESS YOU, VLADYKA! MAY WE HAVE MORE INNOVATORS LIKE YOU! FEAR NOT AND CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Another reason, Father Anthony, why I so dislike this thread.

Freedom of speech and of the press is important. But I find the whole tenor here to be one of "lay judgementalism" (the worst kind of ecclesial judgementalism) toward our hierarchs and clergy.

Perhaps I am wrong and oversensitive. But you know what St Thomas Aquinas said about being angry in a good cause!

So, guys, if you want to come after someone, come after me. I'm ready - have been for some time!

Alex

What!!??!

Go to St. Michael the Archangel UGCC in Lyndora, PA and you will see two altar girls assist on most Sundays at the Divine Liturgy BEHIND the iconostasis with cassock and surplice (I know these are western terms - I just don't know the eastern ones). The will come out at the Gospel and hold the Rapidia over the priest.

Is that, too, a mortal sin?

Sorry, but that seems so incredibly petty!

Alex

No, Alex I'm not going to come after you. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. We just disagree on this subject.

Peace!

Dear Athanasius,

O.K., so you disagree with me and Bishop Moskal! I won't tell him!

If he is breaking his Church's rules, and he just may be, I'm just saying it's not up to me to deal with him! After all, I'm just beginning to prepare to be an Oblate!

Laity have the right to express their dismay and to report him to the higher authorities.

I would rather it be done in private rather than here. Wouldn't you?

Are you a Byzantine Oblate of St Benedict?

Alex

Very sad. I seem to recall reading here recently that Bishop Moskal was supposed to be among the more traditionally minded of the EC bishops.

Andrew

Western Influences on Eastern Churches


Interestingly, the Antiochian Western Rite has the Oblates of St. Benedict. Is this another Western influence on the Eastern Church?

Don't forget the extensive latinizations done after the Union of Bresdt. The Melkite Church had to get rid of the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross (although some parishes still have those Western traditions).

In the OCA parishes who were formerly Byzantine Catholic, some of them still retain latinizations.

So, yes, the West is influencing the East and vice versa. Have you looked at the Novus Ordo with the concelebrations, processions and litanies. All these Byzantine practices were introduced from the East.

Hopefully, the East will convert the West as was prophecized by a saintly Eastern Catholic Bishop before he died.

Alex,

I do not think that anyone really wants to come after you except your beloved wife .

But in terms of "lay judgementalism" as you label it, I think you need to look at not only this thread but hundreds if not thousands of other threads here, not only in this section but in the other sections. If you check the next section there is a thread that has 228 posts to it that vary in outlook and have very few posts that are supportive or complimentary to the hierarchy or clergy involved. Is it because it may be a subject that may effect some directly? I am not saying that it is wrong to vent, for maybe someone that can do something about the subject may take notice because of it.

Information comes in many ways, discussion being one, for it actually may bring some to an understanding. We have many on this forum that have many different levels of understanding and even knowledge when it comes to the faith. Most are here to learn and come to a better understanding of that faith.

This thread for me has been a difficult thread to moderate and manage. Not only because of activity but also for from the vantage point of my own ideas and feelings. If I was to close off every thread that I felt was irrelevant or against my outlook, we would not have a section running except for things that I thought were newsworthy. The activity of this thread has opened a watershed of activity in regards to posters researching and presenting material found. It shows that posters have an interest in the subject, and not every post in a church news thread contains just updates but rather discussion.

I respect you for your opinion and I have noted it, but you have to realize that I have a job also to do on this forum in regards to making this section and the others I directly moderate available and open to all.

As I stated earlier in another post, that unless this thread degrades into an uncharitable one or violates the rules and standards of the forum it will stay open. I have confirmed this with our administrator.

I hope that this issue concerning this thread can now be put to rest and that we can have whatever dialogue and dicsussion the other posters feel need. If not, it will become like many of the other threads inactive and available for others to read in the time to come.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Adminstrator/Moderator

Alex,

Nonsense, what we are seeing here is a struggle between a local Priest/Bishop interpretation of the Liturgy and the broad Church usage.

I can see many parallels between what is happening here and the possibility of what could happen with the new translation of the Divine Liturgy. Will one day some one in the Eparchy be accused of grave sin for following some older Liturgical formula? What authority does one Eparchy have to revise the Divine Liturgy?