www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Former Byzantine Catholic Monastery received into Orthodox Faith

Hey everyone!

My name is Ben and I just joined and I just want to say hey to every one out there!

I am a Roman Catholic (SSPX) considering a conversion to Orthodoxy. I converted to Catholicism about 2 years ago but now I have fallen in love with Eastern theology, spirituality, and liturgy! So at the moment I am kind of torn between east and west.

Anywho..now that I have introduced myself..

I was wondering if any body here knew why Holy Protection byzantine Catholic monastery in Miami, Florida, recently left the Catholic Church and was recieved into the OCA.

For more info: http://oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=426

Thanks and God Bless!

Welcome Ben!

I hope you find your way to Holy Orthodoxy.

It is no secret that the monastery has been very harshly treated by the Church.

Monks and Nuns are loved and appreciated by the faithful of the Orthodox Churches (and by the faithful of the Eastern Catholic Churches too), but are generally treated very poorly by the bishops and authorities. I don't know why Bishops are often so hard on monks and nuns in their care. Why can't they be pastors and shepherds to them as well?

These monks have had a very real experience of this. They appealed to Rome, about the harsh and unfair treatment they received, and Rome upheld the rights monastery. But bishops will never thank you for appealing over their heads (or should I say crowns?).

Nick

Hi Ben!

Welcome to the Forum!

The only way to really know why this monastery switched from a Byzantine Catholic to an Orthodox jurisdiction is to ask them directly.

Apart from that one must assume that they prayerfully came to the decision that they concluded that there was something lacking in Byzantine Catholicism that could only be found in Orthodoxy (not in communion with Rome). There are already a few active threads on that topic and you might wish to read them for more information.

Ben, you may also want to visit with Fr. Chrysostom Frank in Denver. He is the pastor of the Russian Catholic parish there and was an Orthodox priest received into communion with Rome.

Hey and thanks for welcoming me...

I agree with the administrator.... "Apart from that one must assume that they prayerfully came to the decision that they concluded that there was something lacking in Byzantine Catholicism that could only be found in Orthodoxy (not in communion with Rome)."

And this is exactly why I am interested in Orthodoxy and not Eastern Catholicism. There is something lacking in the eastern churches who are in communion with Rome. I can't put my finger on it but really I think they have lost so much of their faith. I can already see eastern Catholics getting mad at that statment but the fact remains that the Eastern Catholics must except the Immaculate conception, the filioque, Papal Infallibility, and Purgatory as at least legitimate ways to look at things, that to me is a compromise of the deep and rich theological and philosphoical tradition of the East.

Diak said "Ben, you may also want to visit with Fr. Chrysostom Frank in Denver. He is the pastor of the Russian Catholic parish there and was an Orthodox priest received into communion with Rome."

I have contacted Fr. Frank but it ended in un-happiness. See he is bi-ritual, he is not only a Eastern Catholic priest but a Roman Catholic priest. This causes a big problem because at th emoment I am a Traditional Latin Mass Catholic that has no tolerance for the Mass Fr. Frank celebrates,this as I said ended in an argument between me and Fr. Frank thourgh email.

Thanks and God bless!

Dear Ben,

What kind of mass does Father Frank perform that you do not tolerate?

Just curious?

Thanks!
Alice

P.S. There are photos of the monastery being welcomed into the OCA on the OCA website. www.oca.org. [oca.org.]

Alice....

He clebrates the Novus Ordo mass, the Roman Catholic liturgy since 1970.

I attend the Tridentine Mass which was used in the RCC from around the 12th century to about 1964.

Thank you and God bless!

Ben, Orthodoxy does not question the "validity" of the Novus Ordo Mass. In fact the Orthodox observers like Fr. Alexander Schmemann had positive comments regarding some aspects of the Vatican II liturgical reform such as vernacular liturgy, more congregational participation, etc. And the issue of the Novus Ordo has not been in any way a significant issue in the Orthodox-Catholic theological dialogue.

Patriarchs of Constantinople Athenogoras, Dimitrios, and Bartolomeos have all been officially present at Papal celebrations of the Novus Ordo. If they believed it was abhorrent, sacriligious, whatever, I believe they would have absented themselves.

The Byzantine ethos, liturgy and spirituality are diammetrically different from the Tridentine Latin. Regarding the SSPX, Fr. Schmidberger of the SSPX has said publically that the Orthodox are heretics for ommitting the Filioque and not embracing other later Papal decrees such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

I myself heard Bishop Williamson and Fr. Schmidberger's comments in this regard when I taught at a SSPX school in the past. They as a whole are also firm believers in "praestantia ritus Latinae" or that the Latin liturgy is preeminent to any other liturgical tradition.

Ben, make sure and do lots of homework and be fully informed about the issues before prayerfully making a firm decision. Just as a word of caution make sure you are embracing something and not running away from something else.

Dear Diak,

Firstly I never claimed that Orthodoxy was opposed to Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass. I simply stated I am. I am not considering Orthodoxy because I think they oppose the New Roman Mass, I am considering a conversion to Orthodoxy because I feel as if it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Secondly I understand that the Byzantine ethos, lirugy, and spirituality are diammeterically different from Tridentine Latin. But once again as I have said before I will says again, I have fallen in love with Eastern theology, Spirituallity, and Liturgy.

Thirdly, you are correct in saying that the SSPX teaches the Orthodox Church to be in Heresy. But you must understand that is also the teaching of the Catholic Church. John Paul II can reach out to the Orthodox all he wants but he's not going to change offical Roman Catholic dogma. Do your research, the Roman Chruch has always taught dogmatically that there is no Salvation out side of the Catholic Church. The SSPX is simply teaching Catholic dogma.

Lastly...don't worry I am not running away from Orthodoxy, I am running to Christ, where ever that may be.

Thank you and God bless!

running away from CATHOLICISM*

Ben has posted a number of inaccuracies.

1. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Orthodox Church is in heresy. It teaches that East and West are separated from one another. It officially teaches that the communion that does exist is indeed profound and that there is little lacking that prevents a common celebration of the Eucharist.

2. Pope John Paul II has indeed reached out to the Orthodox Church. He has stated that even the term schism is too strong to describe the separation.

3. The Catholic Church officially teaches that the Orthodox Church is part of the Catholic Church even if her communion with the Catholic Church is imperfect.

Ben, I welcome you to the Forum but what you have posted is factually incorrect. In the future please verify your information before posting it. The Catholic Catechism is an excellent quick guide to these issues if you don�t want to immerse yourself in the Fathers (old and new).

Dear Administrator,

I do not beleive that I have " posted a number of inaccuracies". Rather I believe you have.

YOU SAID: The Catholic Church does not teach that the Orthodox Church is in heresy. It teaches that East and West are separated from one another. It officially teaches that the communion that does exist is indeed profound and that there is little lacking that prevents a common celebration of the Eucharist.

MY RESPONSE: No matter what JPII and his bishops say the Roman Catholic Church offical teaches and always had that it is the one true Church established by Jesus Christ an that the Orthodox are in heresy. I doubt you are going to belive me so let me prove it.....

At the 15th Roman Catholic Ecumenical Council (Vienne, France 1311 - 1312)in his 1302 Bull UNAM SANCTAM Pope Boniface VIII, declared ex cathedra that it is "...absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

At the 17th Roman Catholic Ecumenical Council(Basel,Switzerland, 1431 - 1437; Ferrara, Italy, 1438; Florence,Italy) Papal Authority More Firmly Established): ex cathedra: It [the Roman Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of their life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of Ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the Sacraments of the Church of benefit for Salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. [Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, Denzinger 714]

YOU SAID: The Catholic Church officially teaches that the Orthodox Church is part of the Catholic Church even if her communion with the Catholic Church is imperfect.

MY RESPONSE: This is not true. John Paul may say this or some bishops might, but that does not make it any way offical Catholic Teaching. Offical Catholic teachin are to be found in the "infallible" proclomations and bulls of popes.

Thank you veyr much and God bless!

In the Love of Christ,
Ben

ps. I apologize for the spelling errors in my last post...I typed it in a hurry and didn't bother to go back over it and proof read it.

Thanks and God bless!

Ben,

With all due respect your post is factually incorrect. No individual can claim that the bishops of the Church in a council chaired by the Holy Father and led by the Holy Spirit do not have the right to explain the Catholic faith to each new generation. The Church has the right to mature in its understanding of God and to present a more mature understanding to each new generation to help us grow in intimacy with the Lord. To choose a few quotes from history and to claim that it represents a perfectly mature teaching is to state that the Church cannot grow in its experience and understanding of the Trinity.

There is an easily understandable parallel in our own lives that I�m sure you will immediately relate to. Each year we hear the same cycle of readings (at least in the Byzantine Church). One would think that we have heard it all and that there was nothing new. Yet, for me at least, each time I hear the Gospel prayed by the priest or deacon I am struck with something I have never seen before. Today the Gospel was from Luke, the account of The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man at Gerasenes (Luke 8:26-39). Our Church also reads this account in the Gospels according to Matthew and Mark so it sometimes becomes old. I was struck with the fact that Jesus actually sent the one man home to witness the power of Christ to the people there. All these years I had focused only on the swine being drowned. Yet only today did I hear perhaps the more important lesson, that we not be afraid of the power of Christ in our lives and that we tell the world the great things that God has done for us. The Church is like this. It always strives to speak the Gospel to a new generation.

What about the quotes you selected and posted? They cannot be interpreted apart from the Church. Only the Church can give them meaning. And the Church most certainly did restate its teachings in later General Councils in light of her growth in the Lord. If you read the documents of Vatican II and the teachings of Pope John Paul II on these topics you can see how the Church has matured in its expression of theology.

Remember, your spiritual journey is not about what you want. It is about what God wants for you and where God leads you. The key is prayer and more prayer.

Best wishes,
Admin

Dear Admin,

YOU SAID: No individual can claim that the bishops of the Church in a council chaired by the Holy Father and led by the Holy Spirit do not have the right to explain the Catholic faith to each new generation. The Church has the right to mature in its understanding of God and to present a more mature understanding to each new generation to help us grow in intimacy with the Lord. To choose a few quotes from history and to claim that it represents a perfectly mature teaching is to state that the Church cannot grow in its experience and understanding of the Trinity.

MY RESPONSE: Vatican II did not say the Orthodox are not Heretics, but actually members of the Church and that the Catholic Church is not the true Church on it's own but is along with the EOC. However this is how the council was interpreted, and this is exactly what the council ushered in: FALSE ecumenism, this is exactly why the SSPX was fromed. But to be honest I do not care what Vatican II said, I am simply trying to find God, and where he leads me is where I'll end up. If God leads me to Orthodoxy, Vatican II will mean nothing.

YOU SAID: If you read the documents of Vatican II and the teachings of Pope John Paul II on these topics you can see how the Church has matured in its expression of theology.

MY RESPONSE: THE documents of Vat II and those written by John Paul II are not infallible, that is very important to remember. Vatican II was a pastoral council, not a dogmatic council. And John Paul II has not declared ex cathedra that the Orthodox are not heretics and that you don't have to be Catholic to get to heaven, however Pope Urban VIII did decalred ex cathedra "...absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." But as I said above I will follow God where ever he leads me. If he leads me to the Orthodox Church,the words of Pope Urban VIII and John Paul II will not effect my faith.

Thank you and God bless!